Warren
Gold forum user
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* b9472848
- Thread starter Warren
- Start date
Illegal
I wonder if the person who posted the craigslist ad recognizes that he is in violation of Alabama state code. Section 32-8-86 paragraph (a) states:
(a) A person who willfully removes or falsifies an identification number of a vehicle, engine, transmission or other identifiable component part of a vehicle is guilty of a Class A misdemeanor and shall be punished as required by law.
It doesn't say there is any exemption if the perpetrator tells the buyer that the VIN has been moved from one car to the next. As a matter of fact, if the seller tries to hide the fact that the VIN has been altered, it is no longer a misdemeanor but is a Class C felony, as specified in paragraph (b). And what is interesting is that in Alabama, the person who buys a car with an altered VIN number is also guilty of a misdemeanor. Same section, paragraph (c) states:
(c) A person who buys, receives, possesses, sells or disposes of a vehicle, or an engine, transmission or other identifiable component part of a vehicle, knowing that an identification number of the same has been removed or falsified, is guilty of a Class A misdemeanor and shall be punished as required by law.
I also wonder if any law enforcement officer in Alabama saw this ad.
I wonder if the person who posted the craigslist ad recognizes that he is in violation of Alabama state code. Section 32-8-86 paragraph (a) states:
(a) A person who willfully removes or falsifies an identification number of a vehicle, engine, transmission or other identifiable component part of a vehicle is guilty of a Class A misdemeanor and shall be punished as required by law.
It doesn't say there is any exemption if the perpetrator tells the buyer that the VIN has been moved from one car to the next. As a matter of fact, if the seller tries to hide the fact that the VIN has been altered, it is no longer a misdemeanor but is a Class C felony, as specified in paragraph (b). And what is interesting is that in Alabama, the person who buys a car with an altered VIN number is also guilty of a misdemeanor. Same section, paragraph (c) states:
(c) A person who buys, receives, possesses, sells or disposes of a vehicle, or an engine, transmission or other identifiable component part of a vehicle, knowing that an identification number of the same has been removed or falsified, is guilty of a Class A misdemeanor and shall be punished as required by law.
I also wonder if any law enforcement officer in Alabama saw this ad.
Warren
Gold forum user
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- 3,872
" * " defined
Sorry for the riddle.
What I was meaning is Tiger's are affixed a * in the registry for a number of reasons. In this case it cause it's a very nice re shelled Alpine.
When I see a vin I Google it's vin
B9472824 and Tiger which takes me to N.M's page.
Your results may vary but I would not count on what I see there other then TAC number.
Sometimes the search takes you to cached and not the most recent page, so be sure to look over as many as you can.
Sorry for the riddle.
What I was meaning is Tiger's are affixed a * in the registry for a number of reasons. In this case it cause it's a very nice re shelled Alpine.
When I see a vin I Google it's vin
B9472824 and Tiger which takes me to N.M's page.
Your results may vary but I would not count on what I see there other then TAC number.
Sometimes the search takes you to cached and not the most recent page, so be sure to look over as many as you can.
Alabama is Not Arkansas
A big OOPS on my part. The car is in Arkansas, not Alabama. Obviously, the laws differ from state to state, and the laws in Arkansas say something different that what I posted earlier.
I am no lawyer, but it appears that the laws in Arkansas are not as clear as those in Alabama regarding the alteration of VIN numbers (which is what switching VIN plates is). Here is what the most applicable code from Arkansas says:
27-14-2210. Vehicles or engines without manufacturers’ numbers. (a) Any person who knowingly buys, receives, disposes of, sells, offers for sale, or has in his or her possession any motor vehicle or engine removed from a motor vehicle from which the manufacturer’s serial or engine number or other distinguishing number or identification mark or number placed thereon under assignment from the Office of Motor Vehicle has been removed, defaced, covered, altered, or destroyed for the purpose of concealing or misrepresenting the identity of the motor vehicle or engine is guilty of a misdemeanor.
Again, both buyer and seller can be held liable. If the seller did title the Alpine body as a Tiger (using the Tiger VIN) or states that the Tiger's title belongs to the altered Alpine, then he or she is "misrepresenting the identity of the motor vehicle". And if a buyer also tries to get title changed to his or her name, they would also be guilty of violating this statute.
It appears that only the second time a person is caught does it become a felony.
A big OOPS on my part. The car is in Arkansas, not Alabama. Obviously, the laws differ from state to state, and the laws in Arkansas say something different that what I posted earlier.
I am no lawyer, but it appears that the laws in Arkansas are not as clear as those in Alabama regarding the alteration of VIN numbers (which is what switching VIN plates is). Here is what the most applicable code from Arkansas says:
27-14-2210. Vehicles or engines without manufacturers’ numbers. (a) Any person who knowingly buys, receives, disposes of, sells, offers for sale, or has in his or her possession any motor vehicle or engine removed from a motor vehicle from which the manufacturer’s serial or engine number or other distinguishing number or identification mark or number placed thereon under assignment from the Office of Motor Vehicle has been removed, defaced, covered, altered, or destroyed for the purpose of concealing or misrepresenting the identity of the motor vehicle or engine is guilty of a misdemeanor.
Again, both buyer and seller can be held liable. If the seller did title the Alpine body as a Tiger (using the Tiger VIN) or states that the Tiger's title belongs to the altered Alpine, then he or she is "misrepresenting the identity of the motor vehicle". And if a buyer also tries to get title changed to his or her name, they would also be guilty of violating this statute.
It appears that only the second time a person is caught does it become a felony.
Warren
Gold forum user
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- 3,872
Albums and 1 more thing
Feel free to post pictures on your user control panel in your albums. All forum members can post pictures that are on topic in a thread. Registered users can also build albums and leave visitor messages. The correct place for personal conversations is a in PM or email or a visitor message to another users page.
Below is a list of CL rules. On this one I think its better to allow spam bots and the community police itself by making it well known which cars have a checkered past. The bottom of the prohibited list encourages persons to flag ads that do what this one does, IMHO
But it does seem a well sorted car and quite possibly put together better the the Jensen lads did back in the day.
http://www.craigslist.org/about/prohibited
Feel free to post pictures on your user control panel in your albums. All forum members can post pictures that are on topic in a thread. Registered users can also build albums and leave visitor messages. The correct place for personal conversations is a in PM or email or a visitor message to another users page.
Below is a list of CL rules. On this one I think its better to allow spam bots and the community police itself by making it well known which cars have a checkered past. The bottom of the prohibited list encourages persons to flag ads that do what this one does, IMHO
But it does seem a well sorted car and quite possibly put together better the the Jensen lads did back in the day.
http://www.craigslist.org/about/prohibited
B
big_mike_85614
Guest
Clear Title
He states he has a clear Arkansas title. So the state has approved of it.
He states he has a clear Arkansas title. So the state has approved of it.
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The state is probably unaware the vin has been swapped, I'm sure he is disclosing the contents swap in the sale to avoid any repercussions of misrepresentation of an Alger. That is a respectable thing to do.
The real issue is why the vin was swapped originally... They could have swapped the firewall drive line etc into the alpine shell and kept the alpine vin and sal tags... But they instead swapped the tags over and had it titled as a tiger...
B
big_mike_85614
Guest
Clear Title
It doesn't matter. The state has issued a clear title. It's a done deal.
It doesn't matter. The state has issued a clear title. It's a done deal.
Done Deal is Not a Right Deal
It probably is a done deal. That does not make it right or even legal. As Michael stated, it is very doubtful that the state was told the seller swapped VIN tags. I suspect the seller has or had both an Alpine title and a Tiger title, and will give the Tiger title to the person who buys the Alpine with the fraudulent Tiger VIN. What we ALL should care about is the potential for fraud - claiming an Alpine is a Tiger. The seller is at least advertising the car as having swapped VIN tags, but he is still supplying a fraudulent Tiger title. That IS a fraudulent thing to do. Leaving the Alpine VIN tag in place and selling the car as what it is - an Alpine with Tiger running gear - would have been the right (and honest) thing to do. The ONLY reason someone would want to swap VIN plates and title with a Tiger is to pass off an Alpine as a Tiger. While the seller is letting folks know what he or she did, the seller is hoping to get more money for a "Tiger" than an Alpine with Tiger running gear, since the buyer may choose not to be so forthcoming and simply sell the "Tiger" in a year or so.
It probably is a done deal. That does not make it right or even legal. As Michael stated, it is very doubtful that the state was told the seller swapped VIN tags. I suspect the seller has or had both an Alpine title and a Tiger title, and will give the Tiger title to the person who buys the Alpine with the fraudulent Tiger VIN. What we ALL should care about is the potential for fraud - claiming an Alpine is a Tiger. The seller is at least advertising the car as having swapped VIN tags, but he is still supplying a fraudulent Tiger title. That IS a fraudulent thing to do. Leaving the Alpine VIN tag in place and selling the car as what it is - an Alpine with Tiger running gear - would have been the right (and honest) thing to do. The ONLY reason someone would want to swap VIN plates and title with a Tiger is to pass off an Alpine as a Tiger. While the seller is letting folks know what he or she did, the seller is hoping to get more money for a "Tiger" than an Alpine with Tiger running gear, since the buyer may choose not to be so forthcoming and simply sell the "Tiger" in a year or so.
TigerBlue
Gold forum user
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- 827
Buyer Beware
Buying collectibles is somewhat risky. where authenticity is everything and counterfeits may be functional but worth a fraction of the real thing.
I do not think it is fair to condemn an honest seller.
Rather I applaud Norm Miller, The Tiger Clubs, The other Tiger web sites and this Forum.
With all these resources it is much easier to make a first time Tiger purchase decision.
Buying collectibles is somewhat risky. where authenticity is everything and counterfeits may be functional but worth a fraction of the real thing.
I do not think it is fair to condemn an honest seller.
Rather I applaud Norm Miller, The Tiger Clubs, The other Tiger web sites and this Forum.
With all these resources it is much easier to make a first time Tiger purchase decision.
Honest?
I agree with everything except the comment about an honest seller. There is nothing honest about switching VIN plates, even if it is disclosed to the buyer. As you say, buyer beware, since the next buyer probably will not be told about the switch. And there is now a Tiger title for what is an Alpine. Is that being honest with the state where the car is registered? Disclosing the switchero probably keeps the seller's action in misdemeanor and out of felony territory. In my opinion, an honest seller would switch the Alpine VIN and SAL plates back onto the car, tear up the Tiger title, and sell the car as what it is - a very nicely modified Alpine. It would be fantastic if all potential Tiger buyers took the time to learn about the problem with Alpines being sold as Tigers from the sources you cited, but doubt that will always happen.
I agree with everything except the comment about an honest seller. There is nothing honest about switching VIN plates, even if it is disclosed to the buyer. As you say, buyer beware, since the next buyer probably will not be told about the switch. And there is now a Tiger title for what is an Alpine. Is that being honest with the state where the car is registered? Disclosing the switchero probably keeps the seller's action in misdemeanor and out of felony territory. In my opinion, an honest seller would switch the Alpine VIN and SAL plates back onto the car, tear up the Tiger title, and sell the car as what it is - a very nicely modified Alpine. It would be fantastic if all potential Tiger buyers took the time to learn about the problem with Alpines being sold as Tigers from the sources you cited, but doubt that will always happen.
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- 207
Eye of the beholder
Reminds me of the time I was installing a residence organ for a wealthy client in Charleston, South Carolina, who lived in the same house his family had lived in since the mid 1700's. I was admiring a very attractive antique desk he had, and he exclaimed "Don't pay any attention to that thing, it's a FAKE". I got down on the floor and looked at the underside of it, and said, "it sure looks like an antique, how old is it"? He said, "Probably the late 1800's". I said "That's an antique!". He responded "NO, it's a copy of a Louis XIV desk!".
So, if we don't catch the fake ones now, in 50 years people like me will probably think they're real.
Bob K.
B9471705
Reminds me of the time I was installing a residence organ for a wealthy client in Charleston, South Carolina, who lived in the same house his family had lived in since the mid 1700's. I was admiring a very attractive antique desk he had, and he exclaimed "Don't pay any attention to that thing, it's a FAKE". I got down on the floor and looked at the underside of it, and said, "it sure looks like an antique, how old is it"? He said, "Probably the late 1800's". I said "That's an antique!". He responded "NO, it's a copy of a Louis XIV desk!".
So, if we don't catch the fake ones now, in 50 years people like me will probably think they're real.
Bob K.
B9471705
- Messages
- 146
This is very true. Time has a way of warping reality.
Dave