Oh boy! another poll

What class does your car belong to?

  • Stock

    Votes: 10 29.4%

  • Personalized

    Votes: 14 41.2%

  • Modified

    Votes: 10 29.4%
  • Total voters
    34
X

XTIGERX

Gold forum user
Messages
501
What class is your car in using the following criteria thanks to recent posts by hottigr and Tiger Blue.

Stock- Just that, as close to how it came from the factory as possible but includes all LAT options as "original" so LAT wheels, hoods, and even solid lifter cams, correct 4BB Holley and headers.

Personalized- Usually the biggest class at the concours, these are things that are done to the car to make it your own, but could be put back to stock, such as wheels, tires, steering wheels, engine dress up, etc.- but no bent sheet metal, such as non-factory fender flares and hood scoops and the like.

Modified- Anything goes- non-factory fender flares, hood scoops, modified front valences with air dams, monster motors, etc.
 
Modified in 76

When I bought my Tiger back in 1976, the PO had just spent a bunch of money modifiing the car. Flared wheel wells, hood scoop, 302 with a boss cam, Hurst shifter, 63 Corvette overflow tank, high back seats, roll bar, and a gt 350 paint job. I drove to TU 8. Back then a lot of owners felt my car was ruined. I had one member, who drove a perfect,MK2, tell me he would not even park his car next to mine. Im glad flared wheel wells are a little more acceped now days. Someday I might even drive it again. I wish I had a photo of it back then , the only shots I got now are the ones of it broke down in the garage.

http://catmbr.org/VB_forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=119&d=1247338832

http://catmbr.org/VB_forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=120&d=1247338832
 
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Wow! Those flares make mine look pretty subtle ! I have a 1981 receipt for the 'big' wheels so it had to have been done at least that long ago... another $7k worth of receipts that same year for 'other' mods :rolleyes:

Jim
B382000446

picture.php
 
I think mine passed the "mod" threshold back in '73. "Fun" factor increased 1000 per cent.
 
Where does one put all stock Tigers (chassis, wheels, interior) except for a non-260 SBF engine?

For example 5 bolt 289 or 5 bolt 302 internals with F4b, Holly, etc externals?
 
Great

I was just having a conversation with DD on this very topic. F4B Edelbrock is the manifold that is the right one but there is more than one type of the F4B
I recall it has something to do with the thermostat inlet.
I do not think that there is any discrimination between the different types in the stock description.
Anyway its great to discuss this as its always the first thing to think about whenever you're thinking of buying a car or restoring a car and where you want to go with it .
I am currently hunting a car that has absolutely nothing left under the hood that's Tiger specific,that isn't still welded to the car,that car would go modified. One of my favorite cars at Tigers United was that really cool looking orange car with the nice flares and side vents. I could have sold my parts cars wheel arches 4 times over,but I prefer not to ruin a good quarter panel. I probably don't have the guts to start putting flares on a original car.

Okay enough of my 2 cents.

Stock with LAT F4B but the roll bar pushes me into personalized .
Oh, and Pannasports.







As they used to say in the motorcycle world different strokes for different folks .
 
The LAT F4b was an earlier style one with 4 separate intake holes in the mounting surface, there were detail differences on the manifold from the later setups... but yu are right, most people dont notice the change.. they see F4b and it ticks the box.

That said.. by 1967, Rootes USA might have been using the later style as it would have been a superseded part from when they used in the original brochures and homologation back in 1964.

Down here our concourse is for stock cars.. as in factory stock.. no LAT, no dealer options.. just what the rootes factory options could e ordered.. ie; smiths clocks, lucas ammeters, lumax rootes lamps, radio etc...

we allow modern seat belts and tyres as they are a safety issue... we also allow period side view mirrors without penalty.. that said.. if someone in the comp is running the correct Talbot Jr or Delswift side mirror then others can loose a point.. the same does not apply for the belts.
 
Michael,

I guess everyone has to draw the line somewhere but no LAT options?

I can't understand how options contracted by Lord Rootes himself even before the first production Tigers were built in early 1964 could not be considered "stock".

In the US Tigers ran into a similar problem with the LAT Options used for racing. Basically the problem was that even though the the options came through the Rootes Group, the SCCA wanted to have them installed at the factory and not at the dealer level. Was that the sort of reasoning applied down there for concours?

BTW, the letter I referenced from Lord Rootes to Shelby American about the LAT options shows that in early '64 Lord Rootes was quite cautious about O'Shel picking his pockets. (This was one of letters from the Shelby American files Dan Walters presented at the TU this past summer.)


bt
at the beach
 
Buck,

I guess the reason is basically as per what you say re: the SCCA.. and the issue that LAT options were really a USA dealer installed option list, although factory sanctioned. Furthermore they were not offered outside the states.

Basically the rules for the concourse here are as per the factory spec.. and factory listed options (which would be installed at factory and delivered to the dealer, although also available from the dealer afterwards) so i guess it in theory sets up for the judging to be a car that could have been delivered here in period.

Apart from the concourse we run a "pride of ownership" class where anything goes (v6, modern 4cyl, body mods.. whatever takes the owners fancy) and also a peoples choice which is across all cars.

As a side note historic racing here bans the use of LAT options though allows the 4bbl and F4b and the traction masters... hence why few Tigers make track appearances down here in the production class as you cant stop or cool them very effectively.

That said if you were to bring the SCF car down here they would allow it dispensation to run in production Sb class as it had the LAT bonnet and 4 wheel brakes in period... (hint hint... :D .. Phillip Island?)
 
Love the big flares. My car looks fairly stock but since I added a Cobra hood scoop it puts me in the modified class.
Hey 67Tiger---maybe someone has pics from TU8
 
poll

is it possible that some items that were offered in the UK or other parts of the world may not have been offered in the states and vice versa?? I have one rootes accessory brochure that says it was printed in the USA and it shows 16 different mirrors. another brochure shows the sunbeam " easifit mirror" plus the delswift mirror along with the " racing mirror" as rootes called it. one item I have never found anyone to have are the pair of "tiger horns". anyone know what they sounded like? it says in this brochure "TO WARN LESSER MEN THAT YOUR TIGER'S ON THE PROWL". was the lucas electric windshield washer part # 77011 with the glass bottle a factory installed item? it's in the brochure. one item that was offered and shown in the brochure with a part number of N.Y.4089 for tigers and alpines was a leather steering wheel cover. since all these and many other items were offered by rootes, whether at the factory or thru the dealers, why wouldn't a car with any of these rootes accessories including LAT options not be considered stock if equipped with these options? did the factory not have the capability to install many of the options listed in the brochures or was it due to rootes having master distributors here in the states that brought in generic cars and then they distributed the cars out to dealers as needed. has anyone ever seen an order sheet that the dealer sent on if a customer ordered an optioned car from the factory? there were no computers at that time. these are some of the questions I've had over the last 47 years of driving sunbeams. anyone have any info or ideas?
 
If you read some of the above comments and in other threads you have "contributed" on in this and other Sunbeam forums you are aware that Rootes in the states offered parts that while factory sanctioned were not offered elsewhere in the world. Indeed L.A.T stands for the computer code for Los Angeles Tiger.. indicating where the parts were developed/originated.

As Buck canvassed the SCCA would eventually ban the use of the LAT parts in production racing as they were dealer installed and could not be ordered from the factory... hence not considered "stock options"

As for what Rootes could install at the factory.. they installed the options available in the Rootes factory accessories brochure covered earlier... these were able to be installed in the UK at the factory if you ordered your car with them. If you were ordering a car in the states and for example and wanted a black SII Alpine with hardtop and overdrive with wire wheels they would likely order that from the factory as you are asking for a more involved spec than adding a clock or ammeter at the dealer ... but on that car if you ticked clock, ammeter and spot lamps they would have installed them on the car before arrival. Indeed I have the factory window sticker (the one they stuck on the car screen as it left the factory listing the spec) for a stateside delivered car that lists all the parts that were installed by the factory when ordered.. and then the owner added additional accessories at the dealer which are in the final sales invoice.

As for the USA categories.. that's up to the clubs there, i can see why LAT options are allowed in the stock class as they were a factory approved accessory that was available in the states... but not elsewhere in the world.. hence their exclusion down under.

As for "period options" some people seem to confuse, or just dont seem to understand the difference, between what they could buy in period or have fitted at a dealer with "stock".

AMCO, Alexander, Nerus, Brabham, Weiand etc... all made parts specific for the Sunbeams (or ford engines in the tiger) that could be fitted at a dealer, that doesn't make them eligible as stock.. in fact it was a person 'personalising" their car in period.. and rightly.. they belong in that class now.. same goes for things like chrome wire wheels and headlight rims. it doesn't make them any less interesting.. indeed some of the after market parts are even rarer than the rootes accessories.. but they are still not rootes parts.
 
Duke Mk1a said:
Stock is sooooo hooo hummmm.....boring. ;)
Click to expand...

says the man who went to all the trouble to hide his modified 260 motor, stock radio and rumors to be considering a switch back to stock white paint job one day!!!... :D

Actually.. I love collecting the period aftermarket parts designed for the cars.. they are great to have.. but I know their place... and the cars i currently own are far from stock.

That said. i did have a "factory stock" tiger.. and every time i get near that same car these days.. or go for a ride in it.. i appreciate it more and more.
 
poll

Michael,
i'm aware of everything you mentioned. but when it gets down to checking to see if the car has the right date coded wheels or the right date coded ignition coil or the proper amp alternator that's where I draw the line. gosh knows I don't obsess about it plus the fact I don't look at my cars as investments. at the united in Maryland I lost a point each for my motolita wheel , kraco cassette player, mini lite wheels, alternator and a lucas amp guage that reads 50 amps due to my rating of the alternator. but it was in the stock class. it also had as much mud on it as any other car did. alpines are close to 55 years old and tigers are close to 50 years old. how many new or factory correct parts are still out there? I know of members that have said most of the NOS out there now are either factory seconds or returns that weren't top quality. how many folks can afford to buy them if they do run across these parts. good examples of this have been selling on e bay in the last few weeks since jim started selling off his collection. I can't find a shop in this part of the world that can anodize aluminum so some parts on the Harrington we're restoring will not be factory correct. a lot of platers and dippers have been forced out. thank you EPA!! at what point will you no longer be able to build a factory correct car? it will probably happen in your life time. that means clubs will have to change the way they think. they will no longer be able to think like a purist. I would say most club leaders understand this problem.
 
Sorta Stock, BUT

I enjoy maintaining what came with the car for the most part. And, the shelves have some original rescues gathering dust just in case. But, I am not above dragging certain aggravating components into this century for a bit more reliability. . . . . .We checked the personalized DOT for that reason.
 
poll

reliability is what it's all about. that could be the reason you find alternators that look like generators and modern gauges that have faces that make them look original.
 
LAT and smog

Back when they started doing smog tests here in CA. Changing carbs, intakes, cams, and distributors was not allowed. Because the LAT options were avalible from the dealer you could get your car exempt. So I guess CA. didnt care if the LAT options were factory or dealer.
 
Stock Plus = Personalized

Just wanted to opine...

RE: Judging Originality

As an outsider, I can totally understand the 'need' to find any available delineation between 'original stock' and everything else after. A brand new, unregistered, MKI sitting in someone's inert gas vault would of course be the pinnacle. I would expect only a very few of similar condition beasts are out there. Between them, I'd guess you could still find a way to date any replaceable items. Rubber, lubes, paint, etc. One of them would be closest to original, but may not be the one in the best condition. If you had original coolant, for example, this may not be so good... but should win the originality contest.

I think it has to be a nearly impossible task to judge between those original stock cars that have been restored.... Don't envy that position.

Its a shame when NOS parts are no longer available and/or can't be custom built. But even if they were fabbed, to me, this = no longer original.

So, when Audi Traditions spent $20+M to rebuild the Auto Union 16V silberpfeil...it's not original. But it sure is cool... (Those not familiar with this story should check it out). Same goes for MBZ Classic retooling to build gullwing parts...

With the capabilities these type house have, at some point dating has to come into play. Sandcasting a 75 year old block using original techniques, awesome, but not original. (hardcore soapbox off)


RE: My situation

As I'm in the thick of this full resto right now, its a very interesting question. But, as I'm interested in driving the car, often, I'll be leaning towards upgrading internals, while maintaining factory period appearances. If there were brand new window regulators that looked stock but had teflon coated gears and non-flexing spans, I'd do it. Its why I've hemmed and hawed over motor internals so long (still no decision). Roller makes sense for modern convenience and won't look any different once in there. But I'll know, and those with an understanding of the engine audio will know too. It's why I've removed carpet underlayer only from the side with rust, but not the pass side. For now. It's funny with these classic cars that my limited budget will also prevent me from returning some personalized items (motor, steering wheel, wheels, air cleaner, etc) back to stock. That's usually in reverse with later model cars. lol.

So, I've checked Personalized.

Derek
 
Whatever Makes You Happy

Hi All

I just added my stock Tiger to the poll. As much as I marvel at some of the awesome personalized and modified Tigers we have within our community...I also find enjoyment and a sense of pride in my Tiger. Having gone through a rotisserie restoration, my Tiger is far from "original." As already noted the LAT options (and I have several) are acceptable as stock by the U.S. clubs for our Marque.

This past year I participated in an Antique Automobile Club of America event and after questioning some of the LAT options on my Tiger, the AACA judges also accepted them once I showed them the LAT Option and Dealer accessory catalog pages. They are however a bit more strict on wheels and tires so I put on factory steel wheels and bias ply tires for those events.

One of the other limiting factors within our marque is the absence of definitive factory records, unlike many U.S. makes which have a substantial records infrastructure that documents production, part numbers and date codes in great detail. This enables those marques to set more stringent standards because they are able to more closely scrutinize and validate "originality" and "stock" vehicles.
 
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