Optimal AFR @ WOT?

ramseyt

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I’m hoping someone out there with some tuning experience can help me with this one. I’m not sure what the optimal air fuel ratio is for my engine during wide open throttle. Prior to a possible future visit to the dyno to get it fine tuned I just installed an Innovate wide band O2 sensor kit to better tune my 600 Holley. Prior to the new sensor I had been jetting the carb up to get some slight color in the spark plugs, (OE Autolite 45). This is apparently not an exact science. By the time I had achieved a slight tan color on the plugs the fuel economy had gone down from 20 mpg to around 12 mpg at cruise!! With these conditions it also ran much better prior to reaching operating temperature, which told me it was too rich.
My engine is a non-roller 302. It has a mild cam (222/234 @.050), tubular headers, 2-1/4” pipes back to the 2-1/2” turbo mufflers and 2-1/2” out the back. The carb is model 4160, 600 cfm Holley with vacuum secondaries.
When I purchased the car it came with a Holley model 4150, 650 cfm which is a dual line, double pumper, with a mechanical secondary. This was just too much carb and I never could get it tuned to be comfortable on the street. I’m now beginning to suspect that the current 600 cfm is still a bit on the heavy side.
With the O2 sensor I learned that my AFR was around 9.5:1 at cruise! I now have the 600 cfm jetted back down, (#68), to maintain an AFR of around 13.5 to 14.5 at cruise. At WOT during low rpm the AFR still drops down as low as 10:1. I just changed to a 3.5 hg power valve and it didn’t make any difference in the AFR at WOT. I have also installed the lightest spring in the vacuum secondary, from a kit, with no noticeable change. I attached a clip to see if the secondaries were opening and found that if I “stay in it long enough” they will just begin to open. I should also mention that, under the current conditions, there is obviously still more power at WOT prior to reaching operating temp---too rich.
I have done some experimenting and am convinced that the engine runs off of the idle circuit in the carb at least up until cruising at 70 mph, (3,000 rpm). Does this indicate that the carb is still too big for a mild 302? Could it be that the idle circuit, at the point when the transition slots are utilized, is feeding too much fuel? If so then this is happening even before the booster venturies are beginning take over.
Could ignition timing affect this O2 sensor reading? My static timing is 10 degrees. The vacuum advance, (manifold vacuum), is 14 degrees. The mechanical advance maxes out at 18 degrees @ 3,500 rpm. FYI this is a total of 42 degrees at no-load cruising speed of 75 mph.
Any help, comments, or recommendations would be greatly appreciated.
 
First of all, congratulations for installing a WB 02 sensor for tuning as I preach this all the time.

I have a roller 347 with a Holley Ultra HP 650. I also have a Innovate wide band O2 installed.

WOT - 12 - 12.5, I feel 13 is too lean for safety.
Idle - 14-15
Cruise - 13.5 - 14.5. Would like it leaner but I run into lean spots at partial throttle acceleration when I drop another jet size.

Get a carb with a mechanical secondary, much easier to tune and you get the additional gas when YOU want it.

You are not running enough timing. 5.0 Fords want 32-36 total timing (static + mechanical). You are only running 28. I am running 13 static with 21 mechanical and 12 degrees vacuum (manifold) for a total of 46 for cruising.

I recommend you go into the Innovate software and set the sampling rate as slow as possible. It really helps stabilize the readings.....especially at WOT and trying to read the gauge and not die. Don't be afraid to datalog either.

http://youtu.be/86erf8z_cKY

Great info here - http://forums.corral.net/forums/5-0-5-8-engine-tech/, Don't let the stupid questions run you off though.
 
I set ignition first. I have had too little advance effect jetting.
I like to see 33 to 35 total at 3K RPM.
Vacuum advance at cruise should take it to about 45 degrees.


Then I set the idle mixture. I follow Holley's recommended method of setting the mixture screws for maximum vacuum. 700 to 800 rpm on the idle throttle screw.

I then jet for a cruise between 15-1/2 and 16 1/2 on the innovate.
I am convinced that the idle setting effects what your cruise mixture is. (that's why I always set idle first).

Then I do some WOT to make sure I'm in the upper 12s. (12.5 to 12.8)

hopefully at that point you're in pretty good shape. If not, its time to buy a Holley book or give me a call.

I don't have a 302 but I know that on a HiPo 289 that the Vac Secondary 600 CFM carbs are marginally too big. They work OK below 4-thousand ft. elevation but they become much worse above that. I'm starting to play with a 450 vac secondary holley but it's too soon for me to have any conclusions. (14,000 ft elevation on Pike's Peak next year at SUNI.)

good luck

bt
ps I sent you a PM with my phone number
 
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IMO you can go with more advance than what you have now. I don't think that you have enough centrifugal advance, and it should be all-in at between 2500 and 3000 RPMs for best performance and mileage. Your total combined advance of 41 is WAY too low and 3500 RPMs is too high.
With some experimenting I ended up with 15 static and 26 centrifugal (coming-in starting at just over 1000 RPMs and all-in at 2600 RPMs) for a total mechanical advance of 41. Running off manifold vacuum (thanks again Duke), I have 12 vacuum advance at idle (16" vacuum) and 16 at low load steady-state cruise (21" vacuum). Total combined advance is 27 at idle and 57 at 2600 RPM steady-state cruise. The car runs great and gets good mileage at these settings. At lower compression ratios of 8.7:1 to 8.9:1 you can actually go a little higher than this, especially at leaner A/F ratios.
These numbers came from some of the Mustang forums and are said to be optimal for up to 9.3:1 compression ratios. With 9.4:1 to 9.6:1 back off to 12 static (38 total mechanical), from 9.7:1 to 10.2:1 back off to 10 static (36 total mechanical), over 10.2:1 limit centrifugal advance to 24 (34 total mechanical). Richer A/F ratios tend to like (and need) less advance than this.
 
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With 9.4:1 to 9.6:1 back off to 12 static (38 total mechanical), from 9.7:1 to 10.2:1 back off to 10 static (36 total mechanical), over 10.2:1 limit centrifugal advance to 24 (34 total mechanical). Richer A/F ratios tend to like (and need) less advance than this.

I am running 10.8:1 in my 347.....so it looks like I am right there.
 
I am running 10.8:1 in my 347.....so it looks right I am right there.
Have you tried more than 12 degrees vacuum advance Duke? In the Mustang forums they say to run it as high as you can until you start to get a little pinging at low-load highway speeds, and back it down a degree or two. I ran mine up to 18 and got a very light ping at 65, then I backed it down to 16.
 
Have you tried more than 12 degrees vacuum advance Duke? In the Mustang forums they say to run it as high as you can until you start to get a little pinging at low-load highway speeds, and back it down a degree or two. I ran mine up to 18 and got a very light ping at 65, then I backed it down to 16.

It was pulling 20 which gave me pinging.....I have limited it to 12 right now. Will be installing a adjustable pot in the near future. The holley pot I currently have is not adjustable. I installed a mechanical stop to limit it now.

Search my "Holley Lies" thread.
 
That is odd. I would have thought that since Holley is a performance brand, all their pots would be adjustable. The cheap Echlin that I bought at NAPA is adjustable with an allen wrench through the vacuum port.
 
I don't know what my CR is..

IMO you can go with more advance than what you have now. I don't think that you have enough centrifugal advance, and it should be all-in at between 2500 and 3000 RPMs for best performance and mileage. Your total combined advance of 41 is WAY too low and 3500 RPMs is too high.
With some experimenting I ended up with 15 static and 26 centrifugal (coming-in starting at just over 1000 RPMs and all-in at 2600 RPMs) for a total mechanical advance of 41. Running off manifold vacuum (thanks again Duke), I have 12 vacuum advance at idle (16" vacuum) and 16 at low load steady-state cruise (21" vacuum). Total combined advance is 27 at idle and 57 at 2600 RPM steady-state cruise. The car runs great and gets good mileage at these settings. At lower compression ratios of 8.7:1 to 8.9:1 you can actually go a little higher than this, especially at leaner A/F ratios.
These numbers came from some of the Mustang forums and are said to be optimal for up to 9.3:1 compression ratios. With 9.4:1 to 9.6:1 back off to 12 static (38 total mechanical), from 9.7:1 to 10.2:1 back off to 10 static (36 total mechanical), over 10.2:1 limit centrifugal advance to 24 (34 total mechanical). Richer A/F ratios tend to like (and need) less advance than this.

Thanks for sharing your tuning specs and experience with us. Unfortunately the engine builder doesn't remember what compression ratio was used in my engine when it was built 13 years ago. I wish there was a chart listing the pressures with a certain cam to determine the CR. I did degree my cam to see what I have: (222/234 @.050"). I've never heard any pinging and plan to use your recommendations to see what I can do with this info. I just bought a stethoscope to see if it will help me hear anything.

Thanks again.
 
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