Stock vs. Personalized vs. Modified

65beam

65beam

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There were a number of nice cars in the stock Tiger class at SUNI. There was no mention of the point gap between the class winners but it couldn't have been much. The number of non stock cars exceeded the number of stock cars so it's true that most owners prefer the cars their way.
 
The first place car in the stock class at SUNI had a comfortable 5 point cushion over the 2nd place car and it was another couple points back to the 3rd place car. The judging team of Pat King, Tom Ehrhart and Mike Michels was very thorough and had very sharp eyes.

As an example, I lost points for incorrect headlight ground connections, an expansion tank whose finish was too shiny (over restored), incorrect battery clamps and a trunk seal that was upside down.
 
What does stock mean ?
If it means as it left the factory with all its shine and original parts including weak front crossmember and poor panhard rod etc If any reinforcements to the chassis is done does it that mean it is not stock If the car is purchased and stored in a climate controlled building and not driven it would look a lot different than if it was left out in the elements having faded paint and cracked rubber and plenty of rust but all the parts are the ones it left with from the factory would this be a 100 point car ?
Just curious
 
VaCat33 said:
The first place car in the stock class at SUNI had a comfortable 5 point cushion over the 2nd place car and it was another couple points back to the 3rd place car. The judging team of Pat King, Tom Ehrhart and Mike Michels was very thorough and had very sharp eyes.

As an example, I lost points for incorrect headlight ground connections, an expansion tank whose finish was too shiny (over restored), incorrect battery clamps and a trunk seal that was upside down.
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Jim,
Don't feel bad. Jean lost points on her car because she didn't have and never will have white piping on the interior, she has wear on the door latch chrome, and no snaps on the hatch carpet. We used the snaps that are what you could call hidden snaps and came with the Martha carpets. She was also told she didn't have the correct arrangement of items in the trunk. Probably because of it being an HRO car with steel wheels it didn't have wire wheels so no knock off hammer. One of the judges told her she had paint chips on the rear end housing and springs from me using a jack to raise the car. The judges were right when they said her car didn't have an oil cooler because Steve needed part of it for his Sebring Alpine. We lost six points to Reg's car for various things so if we had six points less than Reg then she feels she has a nice car. The same thing goes for every class because of the nice cars that showed up for the event. When it comes to your head light grounds I must say 50 something years of owning one of our cars will tell you that I would never again use the original style of grounding the head lights. It's not fun when driving on a two lane road at night and the head lights go out due to a bad ground. Jean has already told me to pull out two of the best door latches we have and send them to LiBrandi's for plating. Again, there were many really nice cars at SUNI and the stock Tiger class would require nit picking due to the quality of the build. The event was a lot of fun. I got to meet folks that I've had conversations with on line but had never met before. Great work Claudia!!! All the Harrington owners owe Jerry Logan a big thank you for the special caps he had made up for all Harrington owners present..
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Tony

I believe all of the clubs consider stock to mean as the car might have left the dealer’s lot. By that definition LAT options and Sunbeam Factory Accessories are permitted. Again, I believe all the clubs agree on that.
By its very definition a “Concours d’ Elegance” means a competition of elegance, therefore condition and cleanliness are also judged. A well worn very original car would have trouble competing with a car correctly restored to original specs.
Recognizing this, we in TEAE have created a Rootes Preservation Class where cars are judged on originality ONLY. Cars are judged against a standard not other cars. We just added this class to our rulebook, so no feedback yet on how it actually works.
 
VaCat33 said:
Tony

I believe all of the clubs consider stock to mean as the car might have left the dealer’s lot. By that definition LAT options and Sunbeam Factory Accessories are permitted. Again, I believe all the clubs agree on that.
By its very definition a “Concours d’ Elegance” means a competition of elegance, therefore condition and cleanliness are also judged. A well worn very original car would have trouble competing with a car correctly restored to original specs.
Recognizing this, we in TEAE have created a Rootes Preservation Class where cars are judged on originality ONLY. Cars are judged against a standard not other cars. We just added this class to our rulebook, so no feedback yet on how it actually works.
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Jim,
The bigger problem is personalized and modified. The Alpine judging team had owners touch on this conversation. What really defines these two classes? At what point does a personalized Alpine or Tiger become a modified car?
 
VaCat33 said:
Tony

I believe all of the clubs consider stock to mean as the car might have left the dealer’s lot. By that definition LAT options and Sunbeam Factory Accessories are permitted. Again, I believe all the clubs agree on that.
By its very definition a “Concours d’ Elegance” means a competition of elegance, therefore condition and cleanliness are also judged. A well worn very original car would have trouble competing with a car correctly restored to original specs.
Recognizing this, we in TEAE have created a Rootes Preservation Class where cars are judged on originality ONLY. Cars are judged against a standard not other cars. We just added this class to our rulebook, so no feedback yet on how it
Click to expand...
 
By definition of originality when it left the dealers lot as being stock would mean any structural reinforcements would take it away from being original, it is a tough decision for me to make because my front crossmember / suspension shows no stress and has most of its original paint on it and the welds look good Would adding beads of welds to strengthen it cause judges to deduct points because it would not be original anymore I will not put my car or anything up for judging because I have seen many times the friction it can cause between club members directly and indirectly
 
65beam said:
Jim,
The bigger problem is personalized and modified. The Alpine judging team had owners touch on this conversation. What really defines these two classes? At what point does a personalized Alpine or Tiger become a modified car?
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Many folks would differentiate between a deviation from original as being a modified change if it improves PERFORMANCE in the autocross and a personalized change if it did not improve autocross performance. Unfortunately, there are different degrees of improved performance (electric fuel pump compared to a V-6 swap). Where the line is drawn is hard on which to agree.
 
Bob

the TEAE Concours Rulebook includes a chart broken down by component area that specifies what determines Stock, Personalized and modified for Alpines and Tigers. Cannot cover everything, but pretty thorough.
 
Bob
Sorry, I misspoke. The Class chart is actually a part of the autocross rules, although generally that would help. In the text of the concours rules is additional information about the classes. It is a fine line that determines when a personalized car becomes modified. The general rule of thumb is that occurs when a component area(s) is Re-engineered as opposed to just bolting something on or changing its appearance.
 
So strengthening front shock towers by adding weld is re-engineering even though it adds safety to the car, and the panhard bar typically tore out its weld within its first year of use even if driven moderately!
 
HolyCat said:
Many folks would differentiate between a deviation from original as being a modified change if it improves PERFORMANCE in the autocross and a personalized change if it did not improve autocross performance. Unfortunately, there are different degrees of improved performance (electric fuel pump compared to a V-6 swap). Where the line is drawn is hard on which to agree
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HolyCat said:
It all boils down to personal preference of how far do you go to modify your vehicle. It's an age old question with no clear definite answer. TE/AE used to have
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VaCat33 said:
Bob
Sorry, I misspoke. The Class chart is actually a part of the autocross rules, although generally that would help. In the text of the concours rules is additional information about the classes. It is a fine line that determines when a personalized car becomes modified. The general rule of thumb is that occurs when a component area(s) is Re-engineered as opposed to just bolting something on or changing its appearance.
Click to expand...
Jim'
This discussion could go on forever.
 
In the posts for the Hagerty's Buyer's Guide - Sunbeam Tiger Mk II forum under Sunbeam Videos forum, the posts got into a healthy discussion about how to determine what is Stock versus Personalized versus Modified. Because this is a good topic for discussion, those posts dealing with car classes have been moved to this thread.
 
HolyCat said:
In the posts for the Hagerty's Buyer's Guide - Sunbeam Tiger Mk II forum under Sunbeam Videos forum, the posts got into a healthy discussion about how to determine what is Stock versus Personalized versus Modified. Because this is a good topic for discussion, those posts dealing with car classes have been moved to this thread.
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How many "stock" cars still have the screw holes thru the boot rear where the dealer fastened the original license plate? Just adding some humor . . . .
 
0neoffive said:
How many "stock" cars still have the screw holes thru the boot rear where the dealer fastened the original license plate? Just adding some humor . . . .
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Randy,
I have a late square cornered trunk lid that has the two tapered brackets bolted to it for mounting the plate. There is currently a set of these brackets on E Bay.
 
65beam said:
Randy,
I have a late square cornered trunk lid that has the two tapered brackets bolted to it for mounting the plate. There is currently a set of these brackets on E Bay.
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Yep, we made a few vertical brackets that mount under the boot handle and are angle out just enough to allow nylon screws. The trick was a quick double 90 deg. so the plate wouldn't rise above the letters.
 
Thanks for moving Dave and splitting, been away from a good ISP.

I recall saying that I would lift the front ends of cars during a tech inspection session to see if they had new quick rack guts in their stock car.
In my black and white mind with a few shades of gray that are often printed on a piece of paper with a bad ink cartridge, quick rack guts aren't on the LAT list.
The trick is balancing the whole rest of the car. Only the owner knows if it's been punched out and stroked.
To be clear I'm on the sub topic of stock in the autocross. This is the tipping point of rule bending isn't readily or easily apparent. As I recall there's a quote along the lines of fundamentally changing the character of the car...
 
0neoffive said:
How many "stock" cars still have the screw holes thru the boot rear where the dealer fastened the original license plate? Just adding some humor . . . .
Click to expand...
As an explainer Norm et al had looked to the " Dealers did it this way to my car back when new." As a result below bumper mountings were penalized then.
 
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