Waterproofing....

[ToyTrainGuy]

Guys,

Even though I have owned my car for over 40 years, there are some areas that I still are not familiar with. For instance, the ventilation system. When it rains, I get more water from under the cowl on our legs, than anywhere else.

I know the fresh air vents are seperate from the heater as the heater has it's own inlet in between the vent grills, but where does the rain water go? You know that rectangular tube that runs inside the cowl & has the heater inlet, is it supposed to ever have water inside it & if so how is the water supposed to get out?

What are some of the things I need to look at trying to waterproof the interior under the cowl area? Thanks...

 

[Warren]

Duck Bills

There are tubes which exit to the engine compartment. There are small bulb shaped with slitted things called duck bills which do a better job at getting clogged with dirt etc. then they do at passing water out. Remove them and clean them and change out the tubes which pass out the water. I'd also get one of those heater vents covers that are made of rubberized magnets to fit over the exterior vent if I had to drive in rain. Guys bucket wash their cars as its just a bad place to let water get in.

Oh there is also a drain trough in the scuttle which also could be damaged, and need attention, new repops on eBay .

 

[65beam]

waterproofing

the common problem is that the foam rubber seal crumbles on the flap that opens to let air in. sunbeam specialties sells a repair kit for the vents. the vent is a plastic box that is secured to the body by rivets under the vents in front of the windshield. I think there are 4 rivets. I used a small chisel and knocked the rivet heads off and punched out the rest of the rivet. the easiest way to repair them is to remove the entire vent but some have been able to repair them without removing the vent. it is a very difficult operation if not removed from the car. I have repaired the vents twice on the wife's car and still get water in hard rains even with the hoses being clear of debris. on her other alpine we finally used rivets and sealer and closed the vents by using an aluminum plate and silicone . another problem is the foam seal that sets between the heater fan housing and the body. it crumbles also and you will never know it since it is on top of the housing and always out of sight. the housing is bolted to the bulkhead so you will not notice the housing being loose since it isn't loose. but it will leak ! there is a shop in the U.K that manufactures all of the heater parts and sells on e bay UK. I received two of these seals on Monday and they fit great.

 

[ToyTrainGuy]

I have installed Rick's vent repair kits without removal. New windshield rubber & Rick's windshield A-Post rubber too.
Appreciate the inputs, but what about my question concerning the square tube under the dash, is water ever supposed to be in it?

 

[ToyTrainGuy]

the common problem is that the foam rubber seal crumbles on the flap that opens to let air in. sunbeam specialties sells a repair kit for the vents. the vent is a plastic box that is secured to the body by rivets under the vents in front of the windshield. I think there are 4 rivets. I used a small chisel and knocked the rivet heads off and punched out the rest of the rivet. the easiest way to repair them is to remove the entire vent but some have been able to repair them without removing the vent. it is a very difficult operation if not removed from the car. I have repaired the vents twice on the wife's car and still get water in hard rains even with the hoses being clear of debris. on her other alpine we finally used rivets and sealer and closed the vents by using an aluminum plate and silicone . another problem is the foam seal that sets between the heater fan housing and the body. it crumbles also and you will never know it since it is on top of the housing and always out of sight. the housing is bolted to the bulkhead so you will not notice the housing being loose since it isn't loose. but it will leak ! there is a shop in the U.K that manufactures all of the heater parts and sells on e bay UK. I received two of these seals on Monday and they fit great.

Do you have a link or contact info for that shop in U.K?

 

[DD (CA)]

Ashley Hinton UK for heater, valves, seals

http://stores.ebay.com/ashleyhintonmgparts2002/SUNBEAM-ALPINE-TIGER-/_i.html?_fsub=833163919&_sid=70385299&_trksid=p4634.c0.m322

You'll see the foam seal middle page.

Comments:
This foam doesn't look like the smaller diameter, denser foam I pulled from under the dash there. Also, if it were significant water encroachment there, the open cell nature looks like it has some room for improvement. I'd be more apt to try something like a rubber or even wax seal ala toilet there (insert joke here).

However... I'm a visual guy and still don't quite 'see' the rectangular tube in my mind's eye. Wish I could get some time at my car, as this is as good a place for me to restart adding stuff as any. Although, I guess the wiper motor and wiper parts would be first. Then heater...

To me, I would not think the air vent seals (neoprene) are designed to really seal out water. If it filled up in there, I'd see an issue. As stated here, that's the duct and duckbill jobs to evacuate water from the air vents. Yet... I did see black tape holding the rubber drain trough to the body wall. I could easily see if this tape did not hold the trough to the walls, that rain water could easily bypass that whole system. Again...pictures will help. We'll see who gets them up first. ;-)

Finally, sunbeam spares uk was willing to co-ship items from A.H. along with parts ordered from them. Just a thought if you or others were in need of other bits.

Derek

 

[DD (CA)]

Heater Core Area, Vent Cowls, under dash

A couple comments, and guesses...

1) Foam seal:
- The one I have wraps around the bakelite heater fan inlet.
- See pic 2.
- It is now slightly <1/2" x <1/2" in dimension. I would suppose it has shrunk in size over the decades.
- the hardness is similar to the green colored open cell foam you might find in a floral vase; its crispy, not soft (any longer anyway). But, the cells are much finer.
- From the under dash picture 3, you can see how the foam would go into the recess ring UNDER the dash area, and in theory might seal off air leaks. But, it would be hard, regardless of material type to seal off any water from leaking through there, as it would already have the opportunity of a gap (capillary action) and gravity (drip, drip).
- I would think it very hard to water to access this area directly above, as it is covered by the solid cowl between the fresh air vents and the hood latch. And yet... the screws holding the heater fan to the firewall were completely rusted and seized. I ended up wrecking a fan case trying to loosen screws.
My guess is that your latch opening theory has merit...

2) Heater Core box, drain and seals.
- Looking at the last picture, the drain is loosely installed.
- As stated earlier, the top edges of the drain were strong duct (type) taped to the sidewalls of the box.
- The latch pin hole would allow water in.
- The drain should collect that water and send it down through a tube to duck bill inside engine bay.
- More guesses, not great at collecting all water going in there. And any dripping under G's would have it go everywhere...
- the TEAE site has a nice post on this area and sealing the rectangular opening below the heater core.
http://teae.org/heaterdefroster/
- In my case, only the felt on the ends (terminations) of the heater core were present. They wrapped the ends 3/4 of the way around the perimeter. Like a reversed "C", no felt towards cabin.
- These would not prevent water from going in the car and would absorb moisture. I'm of a mind to replace them with a non-absorbing material, but it would have to accept some higher temps.
- The TEAE suggestion is worth a shot. But I also wonder about trapping water in the area. Worst case, it rains so hard the water fills the area and comes into contact with the heater core fins themselves. ?

3) Fresh air vent scuttles
- My guess is that your hoses were removed from the bottom of the vent that you repaired? Or the ends of the hoses were clogged?
- I intend to mastic or sealant the perimeter of the plastic vents to the scuttle when re-riveting, just to prevent any leakage there.
- You will note that we gooped the #$%$# out of the vent scuttle area. Kind of the weak point of the whole car. Can always go back and clean that up. But it looked like hell before the repaint too.

 

[ToyTrainGuy]

Thanks for all the comments.

I removed my leaking heater core decades ago. Never had the heater motor out so the pictures are helpful as is all the other info.

I see that the inlet for the heater motor is centered between the two vents with a lip around it to try to keep rain out.

Where does rain go that does not go into the heater motor or into the fresh air vents & where does it drain?

 

[XTIGERX]

I'm a visual guy and still don't quite 'see' the rectangular tube in my mind's eye.

Perhaps the rectangular section ToyTrainGuy is referring to is seen in your picture here.

I noticed when I relocated the heater control valve into the heater core box that the small drain nipple was broken off and missing from the collector. I assumed that that rubber collector shape, you can see the black tubular shape in your pic as well and the other "boxed out" collector area in another of your pics, would certainly be almost impossible to find a replacement of. So I fashioned together an insertable replacement nipple made from a flared piece of copper tubing and some soldered together fittings.

I used some sealant on the underside of flange and some shrink tubing to help conceal what would be the exposed area of copper looking up from below. I held the nipple in place with a "jamb" ring tightened against the underside of collector.

I've had some success in making small replacement rubber pieces and wondered if there might be a good example of this shape laying around somewhere to use to create a form to make a replacement. That particular shape is quite complicated and I'm impressed they went to difficulty to make the original in the first place. I'm guessing it is all one piece as seen in first and last pics?

 

[cobrakidz]

Derek--nice work. Just curious--were the JAL tags painted originally or bare like yours?

 

[DD (CA)]

Nipples and Tags

I like where this might be going... lol...

X - Yup, thats the point of the pictures to help find the source. But I think, as Toy stated he removed his core, I bet that entire rectangular aperture is open. I like your nipple fix. That hole is round to me(?) But, even more I wonder about how much water actually gets to the drain from the latch pin hole. I'm wondering if running a large tube from the pin area more directly to your drain nipple area would fix that issue?

Cobra Bruce. RE: JAL TAG. I can't speak to what is factory authentic. I'll leave to those in the know. But, I can say mine is kind of painted black. That it was removed and replaced when Dad painted yellow and I did the same back to Med Blue. I can discern this due to paint (black and then brass and lack of others) on screws. I have no way to prove it wasn't painted over in blue, then paint removed and painted black when the car was painted yellow. Blue tags on yellow would have looked odd. That said, it was far too easy to simply unscrew it... so I would think ... oh, I'll need to re-check if it was yellow or med blue underneath when removed prior to strip. hmmm... might not have that pic...

Other comment. The fresh air scuttles where all the water would collect have open hole drains at the front (under bonnet) and they would need to stay clear of crud to allow water out. If not there anymore or gummed up, would need clearing to ensure water can escape.

Silliest comment... you know, when a roof drips you're supposed to run a hose up there. Can do Warren's bucket test and watch underneath, rather than a full rain drive... ;-)

Derek

 

[65beam]

waterproofing

the rubber drain trough has been reproduced and SS has them. the reason the trough has the nipple broke off is that the owner does not pull the small aluminum tube out before they try to remove the trough from the car. they'll rip every time. water should not get in thru the hood latch plate if you use the gasket. the original gasket was paper. that's an easy piece to make. many years ago the gasket was reproduced using rubber. all of my cars now have the rubber gasket.

 

[Warren]

Bucket wash

One of the early Tiger articles I read was bucket wash your car. Now I am guessing that that is because even when new these cars leaked like a sieve. The door drains the convertible top well drains the fresh air box I mean scuttle the deck lid I mean boot all have poorly designed drains. It just takes a few leafs or other road crud to clog them. With all due respect it is very rare to get caught out in the rain here in Cali. but I understand Fla. is really different. But even still ToyTrain you are a brave guy driving in the wet stuff in your MK2.

Dumping buckets on the scuttle as D.D. suggested sure sounds like the way to go. Justin great fix, now how many times have you risked driving in the rain. If we get thru Jan. and Feb. we have annoyance car wash owners rain just enough to make the car really dirty. I just call it that as I don't ever get it done at a car wash I do it myself.

It's really great that you all are putting ideas and pictures up. The copper pipe looks like fun, maybe I'll sweat together a complete to duck bill tube when/if dash comes apart.

 

[XTIGERX]

I wonder about how much water actually gets to the drain from the latch pin hole.

I don't see that water entering thru the latch pin hole is the source of main concern if any.

If I'm correct in my path of heated cockpit air it comes in thru the fresh air vents and is sucked into the center of the blower housing and pushed out the side of the blower into the heater core box then down thru the core and thru the heater diverter and into the cockpit. Any moisture sucked in thru the vents is the main source of water. At a standstill or with heater blower off moisture empties via fresh air vent drains, while in motion what doesn't drain there gets blown thru the fan, to some extent atomized, into the collector in the heater core box where the moisture collects and drains out thru that little drain nipple.

I'm guessing what you're referring to as "kind of painted black" is your heater core. From what I understand the heater core should not be painted so as to better dissipate heat. To some extent this may also apply to radiator filler / expansion tanks. Painting would include buffing brass to a shine and applying a clear finish.

Justin ... now how many times have you risked driving in the rain.

For several years after I bought the car it was my only driver other than a M/C. As I posted in another thread I've driven it in a downpour so strong it blew the wiper off one side, I still can't figure out how. The car had looped house carpet and it was damp enough it seemed to grow mosquitoes as every time I got in the closed car I would stir them up. Now after "cleaning" it up the car doesn't see the light of day until the pavement dries if even then LOL Before fixing it up the car was a lot more weather tight and quieter. Big disappointment there.

 

[ToyTrainGuy]

With all due respect it is very rare to get caught out in the rain here in Cali. but I understand Fla. is really different. But even still ToyTrain you are a brave guy driving in the wet stuff in your MK2.


The reason I am concerned about waterproofing, theft protection with GPS, decent 13" tires, wind noise, LED tail-lights, etc, is because while I am on this side of the sod, I'd like to take the old girl for a little 3-4000 mile roundtrip this summer. The longest ride I ever took with her was a 1500 mile roundtrip, but that was 20 years ago....

 

[Warren]

Bravo

You must be tougher than me. We are truly spoiled
out West. Your topics and contributions, are needed and valued.

I am waffling between a trailer and the work to take away known faults of the old girl.
There is a really good thread on UK Tiger about spares and their Tiger 50 events.

In looking at the Tracker that was suggested, I suppose adding a bigger rechargeable battery is a option. I have not seen a Lojack advertisement since Onstar et al have started eating into their market.