Generator pulley/Fan Pulley Alignment

Hi All,

I was having a new reduced diameter fan pulley installed when we noticed that the generator pulley is offset to the rear a good half inch. This has obviously been like this since before I owned the car and probably since the restoration almost ten years ago. Thought of shimming the generator bracket but that moves the generator forward into the water resevoir bottle.

At this point the reduced fan pulley install is cancelled since I am afraid it might further complicate matters.

Two questions...

1. How bad is the current offset...my mechanic friend said he was surprised it had not already thrown a belt.

2. Any other alternatives besides shimming the generator bracket.

As background I have a stock water pump setup...at least I think I do from what I can see.

I know pictures would probably help but I forgot to take one.

Thanks, Jim

Hi Jim,

It almost sounds like you have a replacement water pump which did not have the hub pressed back for alignment purposes.

How does the water pump pulley line up with the crank pulley? It would be off there too if the water pump hub is not located properly.

The front of the water pump hub should be about 4.875 inches from the back face of the pump where the pump meets the timing cover. Hard to measure with pump mounted. Visually, the back of the hub will be almost touching the water pump shaft housing if it is set back far enough, on most pumps. If you see a meaningful gap, say more than 1/16 inch conceptually, that is probably where the problem lies.

Good luck,

Gene

Numbers

Wow, I wish I had those numbers when my water pump was apart. I was only able to match the current offset of the old pump vs the new pump. The main flywheel balancer and the water pump line up nice but as you say the gen pulley is aft an appreciable distance at least 3/8's on mine. Same crap different Tiger....

I thought it was to be lived with as the stock fan barely clears the main cross member and is set inside the shroud the proper depth per the "Cooling the Tiger" article was it on Tigers Utd? I run a gano filter distilled water and a 3 re cored stock radiator with a cleaned heater core. Amazing how many forget to do the heater core lots of cast iron in there was waiting to get into my freshly cleaned radiator., I have the horn holes plugged and can't get the car over 170 yet with the heater in the on position. But it is not like I have been over the Grapevine at 80 mph yet...

It works fine but I think it is another reason to change to an alternator, or at best feed the Tiger gen bearings as I am sure the angle does not help. Mine chatters and complains till it is warm. I am in the same boat as you and would add shimming it fwd. may contact the hood...Carry a spare belt just like you would carry a spare stock throttle cable. That is my plan as it seems like a inherent vice of the breed....

Crooked Belts

VaCat33 said:

Hi All,

I was having a new reduced diameter fan pulley installed when we noticed that the generator pulley is offset to the rear a good half inch. This has obviously been like this since before I owned the car and probably since the restoration almost ten years ago. Thought of shimming the generator bracket but that moves the generator forward into the water resevoir bottle.

At this point the reduced fan pulley install is cancelled since I am afraid it might further complicate matters. (QUOTE)"

First: It should all line up nice and straight, amen. Things I have seen over the years include; damper not in far enough, wrong pulleys in a variety of combinations, the already mentioned water pump hub in the wrong spot. I even saw a cast iron pump installed on the old timing cover with the offending holes brazed to prevent leaks!!!! In the end, it's just a matter of skill level and patience.

Click to expand...

No harm no foul

Got the skill level just no time to right everything wrong done to the car over the years. It is very odd that the balancer and the water pump lined up perfectly in my case. The build date on my motors cylinder deck is a October 1965 probably the few non monkeyed with parts on the car...

We have a ride em don't hide em in the motorcycle world. Once they get apart too far they sometimes do not get back together.

If you think it would help us I am sure we could both post some pics. I hope to have it to the fix in too bad you are on the Right Coast....
Just jumping on the similar problem wagon, Thanks for the input

Warren,

I think most of us with generators will notice at least a little of misalignment of the generator pulley with water pump and crank pulley.

Probably Randy can confirm whether what I am about to speculate upon is true or not.

Somewhere I seem to recall hearing the original Tiger generators had a slightly different pulley on them than the 30 amp units made for the 64 1/2 Mustangs and earlier Falcons, etc. And by different I am not referring to the smaller diameter one for high rpm operation. Most of us have changed generators at least once and are now running the standard issue 30 amp Ford unit with its standard issue, slightly different pulley. That supposedly is what accounts for the slight misalignment at the generator you will see in almost every Tiger that still has one. Never looked into how that might be fixed, but have always wondered if the generator pulley could be shimmed out a little.

Any truth to that as far as you know Randy?

BTW, does everyone know that Ford also used the 30 amp generator in their farm tractors up into the 70's? New Holland subsequently bought the tractor business from Ford. I got my last new/rebuilt generator from the local New Holland Equipment dealer. They were nice enough to swap the pulley over for me free of charge.

Gene

Gene

This is where my skill/knowledge level gets a bit weak...but to answer your question my mechanic friend specifically pointed out to me that the WP pulley and crank pulley were correctly aligned...so his take was that it was a generator issue.

I also went back through the part list I have from the restoration and sure enough the WP is from Sunbeam Specialties (TM32), as are the fan and crankshaft pulleys (TM37 & 29 respectively. SO this seems to further confirm it is a generator issue.

Has anyone actually shimmed out their generator?

THx, Jim

Making it all fit (somehow)

VaCat33 said:

Gene

This is where my skill/knowledge level gets a bit weak...but to answer your question my mechanic friend specifically pointed out to me that the WP pulley and crank pulley were correctly aligned...so his take was that it was a generator issue.

I also went back through the part list I have from the restoration and sure enough the WP is from Sunbeam Specialties (TM32), as are the fan and crankshaft pulleys (TM37 & 29 respectively. SO this seems to further confirm it is a generator issue.

Has anyone actually shimmed out their generator?

THx, Jim

Click to expand...

OK: The generator pulley (back in the naive days) had a space between the cooling blades and the belt valley. I can dig in the barn tomorrow for a photo-Op of the over sized pulley we raced with. In any event, the pulley itself had a forward lead built in. This should also be in evidence on any critter that may still sport an original set up.

cadreamn67 said:

Hi Jim,

It almost sounds like you have a replacement water pump which did not have the hub pressed back for alignment purposes.

How does the water pump pulley line up with the crank pulley? It would be off there too if the water pump hub is not located properly.

The front of the water pump hub should be about 4.875 inches from the back face of the pump where the pump meets the timing cover. Hard to measure with pump mounted. Visually, the back of the hub will be almost touching the water pump shaft housing if it is set back far enough, on most pumps. If you see a meaningful gap, say more than 1/16 inch conceptually, that is probably where the problem lies.

Good luck,

Gene

Click to expand...

Take the Dan Walter's 'dime' test. If I remember correctly, you should just be able to fit a dime between the back of the hub and the water pump housing if the hub is pressed on correctly.

Stock Configuration

My stock '65 with original generator aligns properly with the other pulleys. There are no shims on the bracket, and the generator's cooling fan blades run very close to the generator body. The stock pulley/fan has a raised (or extended) center that places the belt groove about 5/8" forward of the backs of the fan blades. The center nut is recessed fully within the pulley. I suspect (but don't know) that other pulley configurations were used in other applications. All else being equal, a shallower pulley placing the belt, say, 1/8" from the fan portion would, in a Tiger, place the pulley groove 1/2" behind where it should be.

I'll admit that a shallower pulley makes no sense when one considers that the Tiger's belt drive system was moved as close as possible to the engine due to space constraints. We may assume that generator mounting brackets with different offsets were used in other applications.

Articulately Better

JimsCat said:

My stock '65 with original generator aligns properly with the other pulleys. There are no shims on the bracket, and the generator's cooling fan blades run very close to the generator body. The stock pulley/fan has a raised (or extended) center that places the belt groove about 5/8" forward of the backs of the fan blades. The center nut is recessed fully within the pulley. I suspect (but don't know) that other pulley configurations were used in other applications. All else being equal, a shallower pulley placing the belt, say, 1/8" from the fan portion would, in a Tiger, place the pulley groove 1/2" behind where it should be.

I'll admit that a shallower pulley makes no sense when one considers that the Tiger's belt drive system was moved as close as possible to the engine due to space constraints. We may assume that generator mounting brackets with different offsets were used in other applications.

Click to expand...

Much better job describing the geno pulley lead than mine . . . . .still trying to hunt down the critters for a photo.

Ford has more than one bracket for the generators with different offsets. The one on my Tiger has more offset towards the head and there's another on a 289 in storage with the mounting bracket for the head centered between the 2 brackets for the generator. The difference looks to be about 1/2 inch. You would also need a different lower adjustment bracket. The Tiger one has an offset and others are straight.

One Last Question

Hi All

Figuring that the generator is at issue here, I pulled up and have attached a photo of my engine compartment which gives a decent shot of the generator.

Several responses indicated a variety of generators or brackets are available for the 260. Based on my set up, anybody see anythging that could changed out to improve alignment.

Thanks, Jim

CIA Intelligence Photo Analysis 101

Jim,

For one thing, your washer bottle can be located more forward toward the radiator to give more clearance in front of the generator. It can be tucked into the right front corner adjacent to the side of the radiator. I believe that is where the factory put it. The holder just separates from the side of the radiator. That is where mine is and the bottle has not melted.

Randy and JimsCat mentioned earlier about the extension built into the pulley between the cooling fan section and pulley groove. Do you have a copy of Chittenden's "Performance Tuning the Tiger" book from the 1960's? On page 101 is a picture of the installed stock generator and pulley. Clearly the pulley extension between the cooling fan section to the back side of the mounted belt is wider than the belt. On my current generator that extension is almost exactly the width of the belt. That looks to also be the case in your photo.

I had a go at applying the before mentioned photo analysis 101 to the Chittenden book photo using proportions compared to a known. (Like comparing a spy photo of a new Russian MIG's engine intake to the size of head of a ground service person standing next to it...). End result was that the extension seems to be 0.147 inches wider than the belt (0.553 inch versus 0.406 belt I have). These may or may not be consistent with the measurements Jimscat posted (which are from slightly different points). Anyway, the picture and various measurements seem to confirm the earlier point about a special sized pulley. That 0.155 measurement I came up with is not the 0.500 inches your mechanic measured as needed, but may be as close as the factory was able to get. And given the distances between the generator and water pump and crank, may be enough.

On my 347 I could not get the pulleys to line up to my satisfaction when I trial fit everything. I ended up making a spacer plate to go between the head and the mounting bracket. I cut it from a piece of 0.25 inch weldable steel plate from my local big box home improvement store. I like the look of things much better, but the motor has not yet been run.

Have you confirmed that your water pump passes the Dan Walters' dime test hottigr mentioned?

The above is my 2 cents contribution. Hopefully there is something in it you can use.

Gene

Gene

Roger on the water bottle, I had started looking at that option. I did take a look at the photo in Chitteden and you are correct...mine does look like the stock set up. As for your photo analysis, you are probably closer then we were since all we did was put a straight edge between the 2 pulleys and then make a guestimate of "about" a 1/2 inch offset...very well could be less....sorry for the imprecise info.

We spoke about shimming the bracket with a spacer...just not sure I want to go there. This seems to be the stock set up and has been in place for almost 10 years and 10K miles.

Will double check the pump.

Thanks, Jim

On page 102 of the aforemetioned book, is a photo of an optional pully with a part number. #C30Z-10130-B. I dont know if this is still avalible, but maybe there is a new aftermarket replacement.
View attachment 1776

AHA!!

67 Tiger said:

On page 102 of the aforemetioned book, is a photo of an optional pully with a part number. #C30Z-10130-B. I dont know if this is still avalible, but maybe there is a new aftermarket replacement.
View attachment 1776

Click to expand...

That's the one hiding in my attic that I can't track down ??

There is a guy ( not me) selling these on e-bay.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Ford-8n...pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&vxp=mtr.
Fits Ford Generators on Ford 8N Tractors

Dime Test

I did the dime test, although I am not sure I did it correctly. I attached a photo of the results. As you can see, I can not quite fit a dime (width across the face) between the back of the pulley hub and the foward most bolt on the water pump.

If the dime did fit, the alignment would be even further off line. At this point, I think I will just "let dead dogs lie." I will revisit it all when I have to replace the water pump.

Thanks, Jim

Jim,

Here is the distance you are looking for. This is an original Tiger pump off of my 260. A dime will slip in between the hub and the pump body.





A word of caution...that plastic fuel filter may cause your Tiger to burn someday. Original is cool but there is a reason they are no longer used.