Alger or ?

Warren

Warren

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https://minneapolis.craigslist.org/hnp/cto/d/sunbeam-tiger-with-refinished/6238959984.html

1966 Sunbeam Tiger

VIN: B382002156
fuel: gas
title status: clean
transmission: manual


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I am not a expert of telling which is an Alger or not. Because the VIN number in this ad is in the BON and originally was in IL. Also the color was mentioned as green and color #86.

As Warren states "Just hope that the Tiger title doesn't bite someone"
I'll add most likely if I was I may get bit.

Good luck to the prospective buyer and sure hope he/she does all the homework necessary.
 
Remember the Rootes company rebodied damaged race Tigers and they were still Tigers.
 
Rule of Thumb

My rule of thumb when considering a purchase is that if there is no TAC certificate, offer a price in line with an Alger.

I do feel sorry for the woman trying to sell her husband's car, though.
 
steven said:
Remember the Rootes company rebodied damaged race Tigers and they were still Tigers.
Click to expand...

Steven... To put your comment in perspective ... Rootes in the case of a works rally car switched the vin of another new tiger to avoid duties. They did not switch a tiger vin to an alpine .. Same goes for the factory supported race tiger that was rebirthed in the scca in period.
 
If you check the listing Michael it was TAC'ed in 1999. even if that was a damaged body the full restore will be a Tiger as per Rootes engineering
 
Not Quite

steven said:
If you check the listing Michael it was TAC'ed in 1999. even if that was a damaged body the full restore will be a Tiger as per Rootes engineering
Click to expand...

Steve - What I read in the listing was that the car was added to the International Tiger Registry in 1999. This is NOT the same as passing a TAC inspection. My very limited knowledge of the Tiger registry was that the owner would send in the serial numbers off the tranny and differential, along with their VIN and JAL numbers, and they would be confirmed as belonging together. There was no inspection of the car to confirm the body came from Pressed Steel as a Tiger body instead of as an Alpine body.
 
My Tiger was an origional Mk1. It had extensive accident damage.
The front valance, bonnet (hood) both front fenders and both doors and right rear fender were replaced. It is still a Tiger.
 
steven said:
My Tiger was an origional Mk1. It had extensive accident damage.
The front valance, bonnet (hood) both front fenders and both doors and right rear fender were replaced. It is still a Tiger.
Click to expand...

Steven.. You seem to be jumping all over the shop on this... And seem to have misread the listing.

1. The tiger registry records the deatils reported and collected of the cars around by owners. It does not autheticate a car, just details the identification numbers supplied/ collected.

2. TAC is the authentication process to determine if there is evidence of the manufacturing techniques used by jensen to make the tiger. That is the stoa originated authentification process.

3. Using an alpine front clip, wing door etc would not proclude a car passing TAC.

4. An alger is generally a sunbeam alpine that has had the parts from a damaged / rusted tiger grafted onto it and then the vin and jal number of the donor tiger replaces the alpine identification.

5. I have not made comment of this cars lineage. I simply pointed out that your comment about rootes rebodying race cars as a justification for swapping a tiger vin to and alpine is eronious.
 
For me all looks pretty good. The trans tunnel, spare hub in place with Alpine spare gone. Can't see the battery box underside, which is a telltale area. All is well in the pics until the shots of the underside. The front exhaust pass thru's are boxed solid. OK, I know some guys did that over the years. But the rear frame exhaust mods are square and boxed. So that screams Alger.
 
Nice

Collection of parts...
Where have I heard that before hmmm.:)

My intent was to put an * of sorts by the VIN number so that a future purchaser, no matter what time zone he's in will be able to find out pretty quick with a simple search what's up with the car generally.

TAC is great thing it does it's best to add a secondary ID on to the Tiger something not thought about back then at least not on the Tiger line.

Secondary ID's are a interesting topic. I spent better part of a day looking for a GMC 1960 Suburban short wheel base stamping only to find the VIN tag hiding in plain sight in the foot well on the driver's side. When you think about it having the tag visible from the outside of the car is a F.M.V.S.S. and D.O.T. reg that makes sense.

Oh P.S.
List of TAC ed cars to be found here
http://www.sunbeamtiger.org/index.php/tac-menu.

Please note there is lag time in the additions to their list, N.M. has a list too on his site.
 
michael-king said:
Steven.. You seem to be jumping all over the shop on this... And seem to have misread the listing.

1. The tiger registry records the deatils reported and collected of the cars around by owners. It does not autheticate a car, just details the identification numbers supplied/ collected.

2. TAC is the authentication process to determine if there is evidence of the manufacturing techniques used by jensen to make the tiger. That is the stoa originated authentification process.

3. Using an alpine front clip, wing door etc would not proclude a car passing TAC.

4. An alger is generally a sunbeam alpine that has had the parts from a damaged / rusted tiger grafted onto it and then the vin and jal number of the donor tiger replaces the alpine identification.

5. I have not made comment of this cars lineage. I simply pointed out that your comment about rootes rebodying race cars as a justification for swapping a tiger vin to and alpine is eronious.
Click to expand...

I do not agree with item 5 after 50 years swaping a badly damaged tiger essentials into a good body is the only way to keep the car alive. Go for it enjoy it and let the old codgers complaining about the car back off if you have no intention to sell it its fine.
Go to a Aussie sunbeam assembly and see alpines fitted with nissan or in the states V6 Ford engines, are they accepted as non Rootes cars. I think not
 
steven said:
I do not agree with item 5 after 50 years swaping a badly damaged tiger essentials into a good body is the only way to keep the car alive. Go for it enjoy it and let the old codgers complaining about the car back off if you have no intention to sell it its fine.
Go to a Aussie sunbeam assembly and see alpines fitted with nissan or in the states V6 Ford engines, are they accepted as non Rootes cars. I think not
Click to expand...

Steven... Your comparison is completely incorrect and missleading.

The v6 alpines and nissan engine alpines keep their alpine serial numbers and identity.. They have a different drive train.. They dont become a mustang ii or a nissan, they are sunbeam alpines with modified drive trains.

The issue with an alger is the identity swap .. Not the engine and engineering conversion... Why are they changing the vin numbers?

If my father's alpine blows its motor and gearbox and i buy your series v alpine and transfer its driveline and interior into the car.. Then swap your vin and sal plates.. Does that make it your old alpine?

If somebody gets your heart and lungs... Do they become you.. Get your passport and wife? Swapping parts into something doesnt change the receivers identity to the donors.
 
Still an Interesting Subject

Over the decades, we have rescued severely damaged & rotted "Beams". Many have had extensive rot repair with lots of new steel being fabricated. Several barn rot cars had upper cowl work needed where the rodent leavings had rusted thru in the I.D. tag areas. Tags had to be removed and reinstalled after fresh metal was fabbed in. Those rivets are no longer original which leaves the provenance open to debate. How much new metal is considered too much ??:(
 
I'll most likely get a little flack for this but for what's worth here is my opinion. I don't care what one does with their car, as long as future buyers are made aware of what's been done. But too many times the history of the cars "rebuilding" becomes becomes hidden. To many times the history is "muddled" with words like barn find, hidden for 30 years, all original. I wish that like the SAAC (Shelby Club) the Tiger community would have a way to document what's been done to these fine cars. And share it with whomever wants to know. Maybe it's to late to start that but short of haveing a car TAC'd and photo proof that it's an actual Tiger I'll pass.

Speaking of a car being TAC'd I would like to know how far they will let a car be "rebuilt" and still be called a Tiger.

As its been side before "buyers beware" and do your homework. In closing I'd like to thank those great Tiger people who put up with my consistent questions and bugging a few years ago when I was looking for my Tiger. And the SAAC community who help me 30 years ago when I was looking for my first Shelby.
 
alger

Randy 's comments say it best. At what point of repair does the car become something else? If you retained the bulkhead/firewall area along with the trans tunnel and inner fenders and replaced everything else would it still be a Tiger? This question of when the car becomes something else comes up all the time and no one will give a well defined answer.
 
0neoffive said:
Over the decades, we have rescued severely damaged & rotted "Beams". Many have had extensive rot repair with lots of new steel being fabricated. Several barn rot cars had upper cowl work needed where the rodent leavings had rusted thru in the I.D. tag areas. Tags had to be removed and reinstalled after fresh metal was fabbed in. Those rivets are no longer original which leaves the provenance open to debate. How much new metal is considered too much ??:(
Click to expand...

Randy... Agree woth you.. And its a though question on a unibody when the main tub requires lots of letting....

But thats. A question of how much is replcaed before its No longer the car...

The alger one is a lot more straight forward .. You have an alpine that had 20,30,40,50 years of history and ownership ... It suddrnly gets a new trans tunnel, driveline and some brackets and suddenly its history and identity is no longer.. And the smaller percentage of parts that came from the other car becomes its history ?

Two different situations.... One is about how much is replaced/reproduced before its identity/ lineage is gone... The other about burrying an identity and replacing with another....

Said it a bunch of times.... Why swap the vin's... Other than trying to hide whats happened?
 
Wow

Be careful what you wish for....
That being content and a healthy conversation...
One point I wanted to drive home was the tag and title in some countries makes a Tiger out of a reshelled car and a nice collection of parts. Some have ridiculous laws like the U.K. anyone remember the HROFE car on copart sunk and junked shortly after it's sale on STOC UK. Okay everyone picture Ferris Bueller and the mock Ferrari sinking.

CAT isn't a registry of Tigers but it's amazing what you can find by searching Vin numbers on the WWW . Hopefully buyers will do their due diligence and not impulse buy.

Since some of us are adding our trade or hobby solicitation here :rolleyes: I don't see an AC Housing in the pile of parts..

I have seen a TAC able wreck, and a car that failed to pass. Both cars weren't pretty
and I would not buy either. That said I almost bought a TAC able wreck. While I was within a cat's whisker of buying it , picture of it here on CAT . The car is the poster child for tire stores, " Don't drive on old tires," or something like that.

The cars aren't perfect and either are the creators and rule makers.

Fortunately the widow posted the VIN number and has disclosed the facts.
Hope that she got the numbers right .
 
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