Original engine ?

bernd_st

bernd_st

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Still trying to figure out whether my engine is the original or not. No valve cover sticker anymore. However what I could decipher -other than the small steel tag on the manifold saying 260 - so far is as follows:

C40E-6015E
4F29 (64 june 29)

Would believe a engine build date middle of 64 is to early for my MkI a . True?
 
No, Ford shipped over thousands of 260s early on for Tiger production. Tigers hit the line in numbers in 65, engines had to have been produced before that.
 
Hmm. Vehicle build date was May 4th, 1966. Acc. to my earlier findings matching engine # should end with B19KC => 19th Feb. 65. Certainly Ford had to do the casting/engine assy way earlier but that much leadtime ?
 
Duke b right

I share a common casting number and build date on the 260 presently in my Tiger with Duke. Google told me after I entered both dates and directed me to his posts across the spectrum of the WWW. I am guessing that your build date on the deck just behind the water pump is gone due to being resurfaced. I suspect a lot of guys and mechanics had their way with our cars. I understand that you may have to run as close to stock as possible with the vehicle rules in your country, and hope they aren't grilling you.

Great and entertaining World Cup win.
 
Concurence

Warren said:
I share a common casting number and build date on the 260 presently in my Tiger with Duke. Google told me after I entered both dates and directed me to his posts across the spectrum of the WWW. I am guessing that your build date on the deck just behind the water pump is gone due to being resurfaced. I suspect a lot of guys and mechanics had their way with our cars. I understand that you may have to run as close to stock as possible with the vehicle rules in your country, and hope they aren't grilling you.
Click to expand...

The business of keeping vintage vehicles stock must be an aggravating bureaucracy to put up with!! We recently had a customer try and import a 66 fastback stang to Germany and got stonewalled by large & in charge bureaucrats with reams of rules and wielding power. I can understand now why the language has the verb at the end of the sentence . . . . .
 
Whoa Amen brother!

You can also bet those B crats "please make the B stand for w/e." have no idea on the long reaching pain they can cause in persons posteriors can be.

In hunting a 289 5 bolt more than one time I got the "Well I got this fella in Germany who wants it and will pay X ,which is always way more than me !," I walk away and the seller doesn't say hey wait as I shuffle to the car or give that "well okay then have a nice day on the phone then the long but hopeful pause before hanging up,"
 
Thanks for the flowers regarding the championship win. It was a long and winding road to come to that point.

Unfortunately I d on't own a BON. Refused to buy one when I was solely with Alpines in the early days. One of my biggest mistakes ...

It's not for the B- crats in Germany but just for my own interest Regarding the original engine organisations over here have anyway no clue of wat a Tiger is. That's the motivating part since you are almost everytime the only Sunbeamer in any old car event...
 
bernd_st said:
Thanks for the flowers regarding the championship win. It was a long and winding road to come to that point.

Unfortunately I d on't own a BON. Refused to buy one when I was solely with Alpines in the early days. One of my biggest mistakes ...

It's not for the B- crats in Germany but just for my own interest Regarding the original engine organisations over here have anyway no clue of wat a Tiger is. That's the motivating part since you are almost everytime the only Sunbeamer in any old car event...
Click to expand...

Bernard.....
You probably have the original engine in your Tiger. Ford supplied engines to Jensen/Sunbeam in lots that varied in size. Jensen would then create an engine number that differs from the Ford date coded engine and to get to the actual number requires subtracting a thousand and then adding one in to a number system that begins with 1000 !! It takes several months for a cast block to move thru Ford's engine plant and then be supplied to various orders on the books.....You should email Norm Miller and ask him if he has any component orders for your Tiger as it's possible he might be able to match the two together. The BON only shows the Jenson engine number and no reference to Ford's date codes........I tell people my 302 is the original motor
and how can they tell the difference they look the same...lol

Moondoggie
 
It's Relative

Warren said:
You can also bet those B crats "please make the B stand for w/e." have no idea on the long reaching pain they can cause in persons posteriors can be.

In hunting a 289 5 bolt more than one time I got the "Well I got this fella in Germany who wants it and will pay X ,which is always way more than me !," I walk away and the seller doesn't say hey wait as I shuffle to the car or give that "well okay then have a nice day on the phone then the long but hopeful pause before hanging up,"
Click to expand...

We still build and send 289's to Le Mans once in a while for their vintage races. The rules are very specific about date codes & casting numbers so picking out correct blocks is a PITA. The cost for them along with our billing and shipping also involves import duties and cargo inspection fees from Hades. We've got it so much better here in a relative manner . . . . .
 
Please correct me if I am wrong, but this is what I believe is the case for ALL Sunbeam Tigers (Mark 1, 1A, 2):

The casting numbers and the dates they indicate can identify if the engine COULD be the original for the car. The key word: "could." Obviously, an engine produced after the car was built could not be the original. However... Ford did not stamp specific VIN type numbers on any of the early 260's or 289's... but they did start doing that with Hipo 271HP engines. That is why (say with a Hipo 289 Mustang or Fairlane) there is a way to establish if the engine was the original.

But, with all Tigers (correct me if I am wrong, please)... a specific engine can only be established as a "date of build" appropriate engine... but there is NO way (emphasis on NO) that a specific engine can be 100% identified as an original in a Tiger. An engine can be identified as "NOT" the original with 100% accuracy (e.g if build date is wrong or it is a 302 or whatever). But... if anyone claims that they know with 100% certainty that the engine in a specific Tiger is the original... it had better be the original owner who is making that claim. Fact is: no ID on a specific engine can be tied to a specific Tiger. So, even if it is the original owner making the claim... it is his word you are trusting, not something that can be independently verified.

So... am I blowing smoke (Norm... or others) or is this really the case?:)

Bill
 
Fordlandia said:
Please correct me if I am wrong, but this is what I believe is the case for ALL Sunbeam Tigers (Mark 1, 1A, 2):

The casting numbers and the dates they indicate can identify if the engine COULD be the original for the car. The key word: "could." Obviously, an engine produced after the car was built could not be the original. However... Ford did not stamp specific VIN type numbers on any of the early 260's or 289's... but they did start doing that with Hipo 271HP engines. That is why (say with a Hipo 289 Mustang or Fairlane) there is a way to establish if the engine was the original.

But, with all Tigers (correct me if I am wrong, please)... a specific engine can only be established as a "date of build" appropriate engine... but there is NO way (emphasis on NO) that a specific engine can be 100% identified as an original in a Tiger. An engine can be identified as "NOT" the original with 100% accuracy (e.g if build date is wrong or it is a 302 or whatever). But... if anyone claims that they know with 100% certainty that the engine in a specific Tiger is the original... it had better be the original owner who is making that claim. Fact is: no ID on a specific engine can be tied to a specific Tiger. So, even if it is the original owner making the claim... it is his word you are trusting, not something that can be independently verified.

So... am I blowing smoke (Norm... or others) or is this really the case?:)

Bill
Click to expand...

I will quote a passage from the BON " For the Tiger, with it's Ford-supplied power plant, Rootes could not use the same number. They had to come up with an artificial engine numbering system which for some reason, was not tied to any Ford number or even their own ID number. A separate number for the engine, the elements of which are still not understood, was placed on the ID tag and matched up with a valve cover tag before being installed into finished bodies. In this case it was only important to keep the ID tag with the valve cover, making it impossible to know if any given Tiger maintains it's original engine. (Norm's humor here) I must admit that in my minds eye I see a little old lady, working at the Jensen plant who is in charge of Tiger ID. She has several boxes of envelopes containing valve cover and ID tags. At the time the engine is about to be installed in the body, she takes an envelope out of the box and glues the tag to the valve cover, stamps the color code and ID suffix on the ID plate and pop rivets it to the cowl. If she gets the boxes out of order or drops one, mixing up the contents , it makes little difference, as long as the envelopes remain sealed" So in a nut shell you are correct and I have an original 302 in my Tiger !!!

Moondoggie
 
Numbers Matching?

If you encounter "all original" Tiger 4 sale take it with a grain of salt. If the ad says "Numbers Matching" the seller is looking for a lamb to slaughter!

Rick
 
Matching Numbers

TigerBlue said:
If you encounter "all original" Tiger 4 sale take it with a grain of salt. If the ad says "Numbers Matching" the seller is looking for a lamb to slaughter!

Rick
Click to expand...

I thought it meant that someone made sure that the engine number they stamped on their repo valve cover sticker matches the number they stamped on their repo VIN plate. :rolleyes:
 
Original engine

Don't remember where I read that but engine should be built around 2 month and a half before the car . My MKII build date june 1966.

My 289 :
Casting C5AE-6015E - 6 bolt 289 painted blue ( Starter need to be out )
6C25 casting date = March 25, 1966

6C31C is the engine assembly date code = March 31, 1966 , ( not my picture
camera issue Lucas

A22KK is only listed on the valve cover sticker and the Vin plate.

Hope this help and not create more confusion !!!!
Back to my Holiday ( My wife is checking !)
 
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My car had according to the seller, the original engine with the disclamer, "As much as I know". After buying the car I checked the build date stamping on the flange by the water pump and it indicated it was built in January 1965. The part number under the starter showed it to be a 260. My car's VIN is B9471120 with an October 1964 build date. Obviously, someone swapped out the engine in the past with another 260. It may have been the dealer but who knows after 50 years.
 
I like the old lady @Jenson's story.:) Nevertheless and while understanding that there is no exact reference between Ford & Rootes engine numbering system there must be at least a certain predefined leadtime between engine assy and car build date. From my perspective two and half monthes sound reasonable considering the commissioning , boat shipment (normally 6 weeks) & Jenson consumption at their assy line...
 
TigerBlue said:
If you encounter "all original" Tiger 4 sale take it with a grain of salt. If the ad says "Numbers Matching" the seller is looking for a lamb to slaughter!

Rick
Click to expand...

I have a numbers matching Tiger. I am sure there are many original owners out there that can say the same.
 
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