Panhard bars

D

drbill

Gold forum user
Messages
124
Hey Guys,
Does anyone have some good pics of the proper attachments for the panhard bars? I've just bought a Tiger and the only area underneath with any corrosion is where they attach at their front ends. Looks like "L" brackets welded to the rear part of the "X" legs with one hole to accept a large bolt, through which the panhard bar is attached. Just wondering what's correct.
Thanks, Bill
 
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drbill said:
Ah!! Okay, I feel silly. Thanks for the clarification. Do the traction bars on my car look like they are attached properly?
Thanks. ;)
Click to expand...

Well... if that bolt isn't horizontal, I'd say the mount is failing...or the bushings...
The ones on my car have the bolt welded to the 'L' bracket but not sure if they came that way from Traction Master . I've not had a problem with mine but apparently several owners have... mostly with them tearing the mount out of the frame ! I'm surprised that they didn't originally come with a bracket on both sides !
The 'gurus' will tell you that the better setup is the 'bolt-on' type that attach to the spring at the front... or use another traction device altogether...


Jim
B382000446
 
66TigerMK1A said:
Well... if that bolt isn't horizontal, I'd say the mount is failing...or the bushings...
The ones on my car have the bolt welded to the 'L' bracket but not sure if they came that way from Traction Master . I've not had a problem with mine but apparently several owners have... mostly with them tearing the mount out of the frame ! I'm surprised that they didn't originally come with a bracket on both sides !
The 'gurus' will tell you that the better setup is the 'bolt-on' type that attach to the spring at the front... or use another traction device altogether...


Jim
B382000446
Click to expand...
Jim,
I've been reading about the bolt-on ones. I would love some details of how to install them if anyone has that.
Thanks,
Bill
 
Here's a pic from their site http://www.tractionmaster.com/

Looks pretty straight forward... I think you could modify yours with a bit of work if you wanted... I'm just not sure where they clamp but would guess that it's on the main + 1 leaf .... I'll try and find a pic...


Jim
 
Attached is a copy of the bolt on TM installation instructions. TM is still in business and you can buy them direct via their website as Jim has given above. It is their model TM505. As it so happens, I have a set of these new in the box that I will not be using. I am willing to part with them for 2/3 of whatever is TM's current price, plus shipping from Chicago. PM me if interested.

Gene

PS: The scan is not attaching for some reason, perhaps file is too big. More likely operator error... If you are interested, PM your e-mail and I will send it directly that way.
 
Good old Rust

drbill said:
Hey Guys,
Does anyone have some good pics of the proper attachments for the panhard bars? I've just bought a Tiger and the only area underneath with any corrosion is where they attach at their front ends. Looks like "L" brackets welded to the rear part of the "X" legs with one hole to accept a large bolt, through which the panhard bar is attached. Just wondering what's correct.
Thanks, Bill
Click to expand...

This area most often needs fresh metal and should be done by an experienced body welder. The pics I posted show an additional full wrap of metal over the already welded "L" brackets
 
I had "wheel hop" bars on my car too. They were both bent and I removed them. They actually cause the springs to bind and are a very bad idea that was poorly executed. THE set up is Dale A rear springs with a Dan Walters torque arm. No panhard rod either. My car hooks like you would not believe and has NO wheel hop.

281660_1892724683471_1402147496_31647860_4511220_n.jpg

252152_1899182484912_1402147496_31655344_1313897_n.jpg


Forward spring mounts. Get a kit from Tom Hall.

150844_1490988840326_1402147496_31122753_1234443_n.jpg

Screws are to hold plates in place for welding. There were removed and holes welded up.

http://www.tigerengineering.net/TECHTIPS/Spring Mount Reinforcement.pdf

Yes, it is some work but well worth the piece of mind.
 
BIG SAFETY ALERT!!!!

Bill,

I was just relooking at your original posted pictures. In the first one, I see what appears to be a full length vertical crack in one side of the leaf spring hanger bracket. That needs to be addressed ASAP before things get pulled apart worst. There is probably a similar crack on the other side side of the car. Check out the link to Modtigerengineering that 67 Tiger posted earlier for all the details.

In addition to what the ModTigerengineering site says, I think Randy's addition of a reinforcing gusset in the affected dogleg area is nothing short of inspired. I did both forms of reinforcing when I had mine fixed last year.

Gene

Sorry, my apologies to Duke, I just saw the posted additional info on the spring mount reinforcement as I was typing.

However, not only is it generally a good idea for everyone to do, I would say time is of the essence for your car!
 
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cadreamn67 said:
Bill,

I was just relooking at your original posted pictures. In the first one, I see what appears to be a full length vertical crack in one side of the leaf spring hanger bracket. That needs to be addressed ASAP before things get pulled apart worst. There is probably a similar crack on the other side side of the car. Check out the link to Modtigerengineering that 67 Tiger posted earlier for all the details.

In addition to what the ModTigerengineering site says, I think Randy's addition of a reinforcing gusset in the affected dogleg area is nothing short of inspired. I did both forms of reinforcing when I had mine fixed last year.

Gene

Sorry, my apologies to Duke, I just saw the posted additional info on the spring mount reinforcement as I was typing.

However, not only is it generally a good idea for everyone to do, I would say time is of the essence for your car!
Click to expand...

Gene(and everyone) thanks for the advice. It looks like I definitely need the reiforcement kit from Tiger mods. I'd like to do that and the bolt-on traction bars.
Bill
 
Cracks

Before you can confirm cracks? You must scrape off the undercoating. I see cracks in the undercoating now.

Take it down to the metal and consider how you are going to use/abuse your Tiger. Then decide if reinforcement/repair is needed.

Weld on bars help control the hopping with moderate HP and normal plus driving.

The weld on brackets in the photos appear to have been bent slightly. Probably as a result of using them for jack points. Not a big problem and self limited by compliance of the rubber bushings.

"Use case" is the question? How do you (will you) drive it? Highway A to B or will you be competing (competition pretending or actual?) and testing the performance envelope.

Rick
 
Duke Mk1a said:
I had "wheel hop" bars on my car too. They were both bent and I removed them. They actually cause the springs to bind and are a very bad idea that was poorly executed. THE set up is Dale A rear springs with a Dan Walters torque arm. No panhard rod either. My car hooks like you would not believe and has NO wheel hop.

281660_1892724683471_1402147496_31647860_4511220_n.jpg

252152_1899182484912_1402147496_31655344_1313897_n.jpg


Forward spring mounts. Get a kit from Tom Hall.

150844_1490988840326_1402147496_31122753_1234443_n.jpg

Screws are to hold plates in place for welding. There were removed and holes welded up.

http://www.tigerengineering.net/TECHTIPS/Spring Mount Reinforcement.pdf

Yes, it is some work but well worth the piece of mind.
Click to expand...

TigerBlue said:
Before you can confirm cracks? You must scrape off the undercoating. I see cracks in the undercoating now.

Take it down to the metal and consider how you are going to use/abuse your Tiger. Then decide if reinforcement/repair is needed.

Weld on bars help control the hopping with moderate HP and normal plus driving.

The weld on brackets in the photos appear to have been bent slightly. Probably as a result of using them for jack points. Not a big problem and self limited by compliance of the rubber bushings.

"Use case" is the question? How do you (will you) drive it? Highway A to B or will you be competing (competition pretending or actual?) and testing the performance envelope.

Rick
Click to expand...

I will just use the car for cruising, fun drives. No track work. I like the reinforcement kit idea for the front spring mount, especially since i have a hole right where Tom Hall's pictures show in his instructions.
The bushings in the current weld-on bars have had it. I know Duke isn't a fan of the bolt-on TM's, but they look like a nice bit of kit. :)
Bill
 
Torque Arm

There is no question about repairing (reinforcing) existing cracks in the forward spring mounts, but I have to side with Duke on this one.

The use of weld-on traction bars creates two distinct forward focal points on the frame, one for the spring and one for the traction bars. The rear axle will naturally rotate around the traction bar focal point since the bar is rigid, and the forward half of the spring will compress and unwind over every bump, let alone under hard acceleration. This compression puts horizontal force (front to back) on the weld-on mount causing a bending moment on the mount, which will eventually tear out the mount and/or crack the frame. Bolt-on traction bars avoid the double focal point problem, but will stiffen the forward half of the spring creating a slightly harsher ride. If your car is not capable of hard launches, you should be fine with this setup for normal spirited driving, but it will turn the rear suspension into a forward swing arm type setup with half a rear spring for damping.

The ideal setup in my opinion is the torque arm which moves the focal point far forward putting virtually no stress on the forward spring mounts, and does not impact the stiffness of the rear springs making for a smooth ride. I am not even aware that I have the torque arm installed until I nail the throttle (400+ hp 331 stroker) and notice how smoothly the car handles under hard acceleration - no wheel hop whatsoever, no side to side movement, just a nice even pull. The torque arm also permits suspension travel when cornering or when only one tire goes over a bump.

I tried Dale's stiffer rear springs, but didn't care for the harsher ride on the street. Great for the track though.

My 2 cents.
 
Torque Arm

IN AGREEMENT: The comments about the geometry of trac-arms are always debate fodder, but application & use are primary factors. Mounting forward and slightly lower of the spring eye is the healthier solution. Although we never took any photos of it, about a thousand years ago, we tried a version of the torque arm for straight line fun. It was then called a "snubber" and neatly lifted my fanny under load giving a downhill view of the real estate. But it worked fine and kept the bunny hop away . . . . . .
 
Am I the only one using the torque arm who has had problems with rear wheel hop under severe braking?
 
Definitely use the ModTiger frame reenforcement kit. I took the kit to a local frame shop and they welded it on for $1500. My car had the frame cracked on both sides along with a broken main leaf on both springs. I don't know if cracked main leaf springs is rare but my car had that problem. The panhard bar mounts appear to be okay so I didn't bother with that. Dales leaf springs eliminate the need for traction bars or anything else and the ride was fine.
 
dude234 said:
I took the kit to a local frame shop and they welded it on for $1500.
Click to expand...

HOLY CRAP!

I fitted the plates myself with a vice and a BAH....I then bought a welding jacket and wire for a friend who used his welding rig. Cost - my time and $95.
 
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