Podium Finish for Dale A.

podium

JD,
have you been around SCCA racing? I have seen a lot of things happen in the last forty years that just didn't make sense.
 
from the June event... last post:

http://catmbr.org/VB_forum/showthread.php?t=2927&highlight=wheels


Guys, obviously there is a bit of an issue in regards to Dales car (and some others) running a different spec. I guess Dales car is prepared to the rules he normally races under.

Obviously larger wheels and vented/larger brakes are an advantage.. as are a lower profile stiffer sidewall wider tyre...
will that make the car faster and more consistent? YES.
Is it an advantage over the other Tigers? YES
Did it cost another Tiger a podium? NO

I will say what i did before... it is a pity it wasnt a level playing field, but shows how good a job the other Tiger boys did running more stock.

Dale still drove well... and did the marque proud ... lets keep the more pointed debate friendly. :cool:
 
I've suspected that the organizers have manipulated things to give an advantage to the honored marque each year. I was surprised to not see the maserati t151 on pole in this race. Did it race in another group?
I think the only reason Dale was allowed in with that setup was to give an advantage to the secondary honored marque, the Tiger. I would be somewhat surprised to see that car invited back on a year when the Tiger is not somehow related to the honored marque. Maybe a ford powered special year or Sunbeam or Shelby cars year. I doubt that the organizers were tricked by the car or deceived by the owner. I think they got a result they wanted.
Just my hunch. Im just a spectator.
 
Maserati Tipo 151

mrthieba said:
I was surprised to not see the maserati t151 on pole in this race. Did it race in another group?
Click to expand...

The program lists a 1962 Maserati Tipo 151, car No. 3, driven by Derek Hill, in class 6A - 1955-1961 Sports Racing Cars Over 2000cc. Yes, a 1962 in a class that has an ending date of 1961. In the same class was a 1963 Devin C Type.

Looking at the results at Mazda Raceway's website, it appears that the Maserati Tipo 151 did not run in the final race. It also looks like the 1963 Devin C Type also did not run in the final race.
 
The tipo had an issue and the owner decided to save it for the goodwood revival meet (where it got crunched last year) it will be up against the number 8 LM tiger in that race... Watch out for RAC TT results in a month and s bit!
 
TigerBlue said:
Vintage racing rules. View on line or download.

http://www.hmsausa.com/rules/2014 HMSA Rules Regulations w-logo 12-27-13.pdf

Wheels and Brakes are on page 10.

Rick
Click to expand...

Now that I've read your first post carefully, I can agree that Dale had a significant advantage over the other Tigers. I don't know the details of what rotors/calipers everyone was using, but the rotors were clearly larger diameter and the tires used had an additional 20mm section width. So, one orange amongst the other Sunbeam apples, at the margin.

I ran vintage for a number of years in formula cars and have experience with HMSA and many of the other sanctioning bodies. Of all the groups, HMSA seems to exercise the most discretion in who they let run and who they don't...Years ago, I had a friend with a bona fide Bud Moore Boss 302 refused, simply because of bad blood with a couple of "higher ups" at HMSA. Other hand, I know for certain that, over the years, people close to the organizers have been allowed to run non-compliant cars.

I believe Dale typically runs with VARA and, I'd suggest, that organization is a little more liberal with their allowances...back when I was running, we didn't bother bringing the FF down there, because we didn't want to be down 10-15hp to the competition with our GCR motor.

On the west coast, unless things have changed over the last 6-7 years, CSRG has a reputation of best holding the line of period correct and adherence to their rule book.
 
I hesitate to post, as I don't have a dog in this fight (nor do I really want to prolong this "discussion"). But, I'm curious, given my background in vintage.

The big question I have is tires. Not just size, which has been posted, but type/compound etc. I'd love to hear what everyone was running. Were any of the other Tigers on 14's? I'd also be interested to know what brake set ups were being used...not just rotor diameter, but also design. Can anyone fill in the blanks?
 
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Democracy is just a Form Of Mob Rule

Haven't raced legal since 68. Family/business costs and rule changes made us sit it all out from the nose bleed seats, except for occasional wild track testing with a wink & nod :D. But, I remember the pit politics and racer's efforts to compete with an edge. That has not changed and never will. The innovations have produced many gains throughout the industry. In the end, it's down to the driver making use of what they are sitting in. "Run what ya brung and have at it".
Would still luv to run one last outlaw race, three deep into a two-car corner . . . .
 
mwood said:
The big question I have is tires. Not just size, which has been posted, but type/compound etc. I'd love to hear what everyone was running. Were any of the other Tigers on 14's? I'd also be interested to know what brake set ups were being used...not just rotor diameter, but also design. Can anyone fill in the blanks?
Click to expand...

I can chime in on the tire and wheel question. But first, I think a little explanation is in order.

Although the initial effort was made in May of 2013 to gain the ear of SCRAMP and inform HMSA of our wish to field an inordinate number of Tigers at the 2014 MMR to celebrate the racing history of the marque and its 50th anniversary, it was mid-January before Tigers finally got the blessing from the SCRAMP selection committee to be a feature.

With the entry deadline fast approaching, a mad scramble was made to determine, from my original list of 20 race cars submitted in May of the prior year, which car/driver combinations were remotely practicable to be ready by August. Many of the cars on the initial list were either awaiting repair, committed to other venues, or much too far from HMSA regulations as to probably cause significant stir amongst other non-Tiger entrants. It is important to point out that driver experience and competency were major considerations in compiling the short list.

It soon became clear that if there were to be a significant field of Tigers at the MMR, we would have to bring cars in from outside the HMSA sanctioning body that wouldn’t strictly conform to the published car prep rules. In the end, I believe nine Tigers were invited by SCRAMP to attend.

I am not going to air the Tiger group car prep compliance variances, but suffice it to say that every car that attended the 2014 MMR is vulnerable to the criticism of some of those posting on this thread, the HSC Tiger included. The fact is adherence to the 1965 GCR’s is ignored by the vast majority of participants in the production groups of the MMR. Few owners are truly entitled to wear “the badge of honor” when it comes to the strict period correctness of their car preparation. However, at the respectful request of the HMSA tech steward, a couple of Tiger owners did take steps to bring their cars more into compliance with the spirit of the HMSA rules for production cars. Hats off to Don and Dale for making those efforts and spending the considerable money to make significant alterations to their car prep. Also, every owner invited by SCRAMP understood that the car prep leeway necessarily granted this year would not be afforded in future years. Going forward, all those wanting to continue running with SCRAMP/HMSA would need to make the necessary changes to fully comply with their car prep rules.

Mike, Tigers were specifically allowed to run the Hoosier R6, with most being hand treaded. Furthermore, 13” and 14” wheels have been approved for Tigers by HMSA for a number of years now – #55B runs 14's. I am of the opinion that the cars that finished in the “top ten” were there primarily because of extremely capable driving combined with track familiarity.

This event was supposed to be about celebrating the marque and its 50th anniversary. The major significance of the above described effort was the fielding of nine Tigers, all racing on the track at one time. There was no podium, no winner’s trophy, just excellent performances by all of the drivers, some able to finish ahead of Corvettes, Cobras and Mustangs. Like John Morton and Tom Sakai in prior years, Dale won the Rolex Award for his excellence in overall presentation, not for being the third to cross the finish line.

More importantly, I want to acknowledge the quiet, essential contributions that Bill Doolittle made in facilitating the outstanding display of very high quality Tigers at the Concours on the Avenue and the festive Tiger celebration at the Baja Cantina. Both events were critical in making 2014 a pivotal year for the public recognition of the Sunbeam Tiger.
 
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monterey

Hi Dave, thanks for posting this to the forum.

Hats off to you for having the time, passion and commitment (money) that was necessary to restore the HSC tiger to it's present state. It's a truly beautiful car. Obviously it's a bummer that the brakes failed but I look forward to seeing it back racing soon.

Like you say this was supposed to be a celebration of the marque and with 9 cars entered there was bound to be some variation within the theme. If someone brought a car that gave it an inordinate advantage over all the others then it would not have been permitted to race.

After Dale finished a couple of places in front of the #74 tiger car I saw John go up to Dale to congratulate him. I didn't hear what was said but they were both smiling and seemed to be enjoying the moment. I would be surprised if John was telling him the only reason he did well was that he ran 14" wheels.

regards
Bob J.
 
Dave, thanks for clarifying and bringing perspective back to this discussion.
Mike
 
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