Show Classes
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Warren
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Only
One I have seen was given out at Bill Martin's shop prior to their United at Tahoe. Bill hosted a training session for judging. We have a thread regarding their hand out forms.
As a general rule it's best to seek information from the chairperson of each event. Earlier event rules guidelines etc. should just be used as general information. I have brought the classes up before on forum and was told to always add disclaimer.
Great idea to bring this up as I don't think anyone wants to tweak their car for different United's.
Personally I thought the seminar was the best Norm was there and many guys hung out afterwards and had cold adult beverages.
One I have seen was given out at Bill Martin's shop prior to their United at Tahoe. Bill hosted a training session for judging. We have a thread regarding their hand out forms.
As a general rule it's best to seek information from the chairperson of each event. Earlier event rules guidelines etc. should just be used as general information. I have brought the classes up before on forum and was told to always add disclaimer.
Great idea to bring this up as I don't think anyone wants to tweak their car for different United's.
Personally I thought the seminar was the best Norm was there and many guys hung out afterwards and had cold adult beverages.
Not Well Defined
The classes seem to defy definitions. Most of the class definitions I have seen were aimed at the Concours for Tigers United, but seemed to ignore the Autocross. I always thought Stock meant the car only has items that came on the car from the factory, LAT options, or replacement for normal wear items. However, for the Autocross it seems like everything is permissible if it is close to looking like what the original items were. In the past, there was a point system used to determine class, but under it a car could run in the Stock class with a 302 engine with Dale's front suspension, including a quick rack. While such a car might loose points in the Concours, it could clean up in the Autocross. It seems logical that there needs to be a system where cars that have items that are not stock but give the car a competitive advantage in the Autocross should be either penalized in the Autocross or not allowed to run in the Stock category.
Also, there seems to be different minds on whether or not cars can be changed between the Concours and the Autocross. In the past, cars have run with one set of wheels and tires (for a competitive advantage over stock wheel and tire configurations) and then been judged in the Concours with stock wheels and tires.
Bottom line is that there is no consistent set of rules for determining if a car should be in the Stock, Personalized, and Modified classes.
The classes seem to defy definitions. Most of the class definitions I have seen were aimed at the Concours for Tigers United, but seemed to ignore the Autocross. I always thought Stock meant the car only has items that came on the car from the factory, LAT options, or replacement for normal wear items. However, for the Autocross it seems like everything is permissible if it is close to looking like what the original items were. In the past, there was a point system used to determine class, but under it a car could run in the Stock class with a 302 engine with Dale's front suspension, including a quick rack. While such a car might loose points in the Concours, it could clean up in the Autocross. It seems logical that there needs to be a system where cars that have items that are not stock but give the car a competitive advantage in the Autocross should be either penalized in the Autocross or not allowed to run in the Stock category.
Also, there seems to be different minds on whether or not cars can be changed between the Concours and the Autocross. In the past, cars have run with one set of wheels and tires (for a competitive advantage over stock wheel and tire configurations) and then been judged in the Concours with stock wheels and tires.
Bottom line is that there is no consistent set of rules for determining if a car should be in the Stock, Personalized, and Modified classes.
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For the last 3 Tigers Uniteds that CAT has hosted, CAT has given very general guidelines about the intention and spirit for each class:
The “Stock” class is meant for Tigers that are being kept in very original condition with the exception that LAT options are allowed.
The “Modified” class is for cars that have received major modifications including those that would substantially improve its Autocross performance.
The “Personalized” class lies in the middle.
CAT encourages any who want help selecting a class to contact the event Chair.
I think that Warren might be talking about the points classification system that Tom Hall came up with decades ago. It worked OK for a while but that was in a simpler time. Eventually stoker motors and other modifications sprung up and Tom concluded that his system just no longer worked.
If someone were to devise a points system that works, I’m sure CAT would consider it. In the meantime, we’ll get along fine with those general guidelines that have worked nicely for many years.
bt
at the beach
The “Stock” class is meant for Tigers that are being kept in very original condition with the exception that LAT options are allowed.
The “Modified” class is for cars that have received major modifications including those that would substantially improve its Autocross performance.
The “Personalized” class lies in the middle.
CAT encourages any who want help selecting a class to contact the event Chair.
I think that Warren might be talking about the points classification system that Tom Hall came up with decades ago. It worked OK for a while but that was in a simpler time. Eventually stoker motors and other modifications sprung up and Tom concluded that his system just no longer worked.
If someone were to devise a points system that works, I’m sure CAT would consider it. In the meantime, we’ll get along fine with those general guidelines that have worked nicely for many years.
bt
at the beach
Warren
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Wow
Now we got a discussion and something to talk about other then cars for sale at auction's
Buck yes they did use the general class description at Tahoe. The complicated points wasn't there that I saw, but it is interesting in its attempt at rating.
One of my WTH moments was a 6 point deduction for non 260 5 bolt in stock, but just as an interested party.
Now we got a discussion and something to talk about other then cars for sale at auction's
Buck yes they did use the general class description at Tahoe. The complicated points wasn't there that I saw, but it is interesting in its attempt at rating.One of my WTH moments was a 6 point deduction for non 260 5 bolt in stock, but just as an interested party.
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In general, I've used the following guidelines over the years:
Stock- just that, as close to stock as possible, LAT options included.
Modified- bent sheet metal (fender flares other than LAT, hood scoops other that LAT, air dams), non-stock front ends, 4 wheel disc brakes, monster motors, different drive train (5 speeds, multi-link rear ends).
Personalized- items that reflect the personality of the owner but could be put back to stock fairly easily.
I know, it's pretty general, but it gives you an idea of what cars fit where...
Stock- just that, as close to stock as possible, LAT options included.
Modified- bent sheet metal (fender flares other than LAT, hood scoops other that LAT, air dams), non-stock front ends, 4 wheel disc brakes, monster motors, different drive train (5 speeds, multi-link rear ends).
Personalized- items that reflect the personality of the owner but could be put back to stock fairly easily.
I know, it's pretty general, but it gives you an idea of what cars fit where...
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classes
TE/AE had three classes until a few years ago but the modified class was dropped in both alpine and tiger. if it's not stock then where do you draw the line as to what's personalized and what is modified? TE/AE also has a class for "rare rootes".
TE/AE had three classes until a few years ago but the modified class was dropped in both alpine and tiger. if it's not stock then where do you draw the line as to what's personalized and what is modified? TE/AE also has a class for "rare rootes".
TigerBlue
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Stock or personalized?
If you have trouble deciding which your Tiger is between Stock and personalized? You best enter personalized. The stock class cars receive/are awarded? lots of negative points for anything from being the wrong red? a custom wheel or a missing tool. Avoid the frustration and enter the largest Class: Personalized.
My approach is enter the car show "personalized", quick detail so it looks sharp and ignore the judging.
Rick
If you have trouble deciding which your Tiger is between Stock and personalized? You best enter personalized. The stock class cars receive/are awarded? lots of negative points for anything from being the wrong red? a custom wheel or a missing tool. Avoid the frustration and enter the largest Class: Personalized.
My approach is enter the car show "personalized", quick detail so it looks sharp and ignore the judging.
Rick
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Huh ? What ? Why??
I just like playin' with em' . . . .the minutia of judgement is for another alien mind set.
I just like playin' with em' . . . .the minutia of judgement is for another alien mind set.
I've always struggled with the description of "stock". There're obvious things, like 289's, that often are allowed that make no sense to me. But, I also don't see LAT options as "stock", at least based on the definitions used by most racing bodies and most marque clubs. The parts were provided by the aftermarket and dealer installed. Even given Rootes support, most all were not production line options. Other hand, if all Tiger enthusiasts agree that they are stock, I suppose its all good.
TigerBlue
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LAT
The "difference" with Tigers reflects the conservative factory. Engineers thought the 260 2b Ford was too much power.
1964 was the early "Muscle Car" era. L.A.T. options made the Tiger a performance car with cred. How many Tigers were "personalized" with more HP within months of purchase: I do not know but it was happening. I remember a friend who came by my house in 1966 while test driving a car from a dealer. It had a solid lifter 289 Hipo.
The LAT "options were also were raced so they could compete in road racing. B class. Rick
The "difference" with Tigers reflects the conservative factory. Engineers thought the 260 2b Ford was too much power.
1964 was the early "Muscle Car" era. L.A.T. options made the Tiger a performance car with cred. How many Tigers were "personalized" with more HP within months of purchase: I do not know but it was happening. I remember a friend who came by my house in 1966 while test driving a car from a dealer. It had a solid lifter 289 Hipo.
The LAT "options were also were raced so they could compete in road racing. B class. Rick
Warren
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Showing
At my first United I was a DNC or did not compete.
My first problem was all that car cleaning and detailing got in the way of my 12 Oz curls
The other was a judge came up and encouraged me to show, saying " Don't you want to know what's wrong with your car,"
It certainly wasn't a good sales pitch as I was immediately turned off , but a few more brews fixed everything.
I've always had driver cars so the fun of attending and possibly an autocross is good.
I will dig up the aforementioned points worksheet which was an attempt of adding points for given items to draw a line between Personalized and Modified classes primarily. I think it's a good discussion . It's impossible to please all or get everyone to agree.
I can agree that putting a Hokanson, Dale's or Fat Man front end on any car and its Modified period, and a much better driver.
At my first United I was a DNC or did not compete.
My first problem was all that car cleaning and detailing got in the way of my 12 Oz curls
The other was a judge came up and encouraged me to show, saying " Don't you want to know what's wrong with your car,"
It certainly wasn't a good sales pitch as I was immediately turned off , but a few more brews fixed everything.
I've always had driver cars so the fun of attending and possibly an autocross is good.
I will dig up the aforementioned points worksheet which was an attempt of adding points for given items to draw a line between Personalized and Modified classes primarily. I think it's a good discussion . It's impossible to please all or get everyone to agree.
I can agree that putting a Hokanson, Dale's or Fat Man front end on any car and its Modified period, and a much better driver.
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Confession...
I 'helped' judge the Modified at Tahoe. I was just an innocent bystander, but we needed an extra member. Deer in headlights...
Being too new to the scene, I'll admit to having plenty of wtf moments. The list guidelines help, but it leaves plenty of imagination for the judges.
Deciding which trunk modification was performed better than another trunk was a challenge, never mind judging an entire very nice car against 2-3 in similar build. Brand new wheels, while nearly flawless, were downgraded next to modified but more period wheel set with flaws. If the sheet calls for that... I get it. But not sure it does. These types of calls are... Better made by those that have been around awhile I suppose...
Considering that major works of knowledge on the cars can also contradict an original owner's knowledge, I'd guess that Stock must be far, far tougher to discern.
Guys with deep knowledge across hundreds of cars have to document and share at least for later generations, but even single cars may have plenty of quirks that are befuddling or cause experts to consider pieces "wrong" when certain they haven't been touched.
But this lack of uniformity "issue" is another thing making Tiger's unique. We simply haven't quite the same access to Ford Mustang production photos, for example.
Charming? Maybe....
Yah, impossible...
I 'helped' judge the Modified at Tahoe. I was just an innocent bystander, but we needed an extra member. Deer in headlights...
Being too new to the scene, I'll admit to having plenty of wtf moments. The list guidelines help, but it leaves plenty of imagination for the judges.
Deciding which trunk modification was performed better than another trunk was a challenge, never mind judging an entire very nice car against 2-3 in similar build. Brand new wheels, while nearly flawless, were downgraded next to modified but more period wheel set with flaws. If the sheet calls for that... I get it. But not sure it does. These types of calls are... Better made by those that have been around awhile I suppose...
Considering that major works of knowledge on the cars can also contradict an original owner's knowledge, I'd guess that Stock must be far, far tougher to discern.
Guys with deep knowledge across hundreds of cars have to document and share at least for later generations, but even single cars may have plenty of quirks that are befuddling or cause experts to consider pieces "wrong" when certain they haven't been touched.
But this lack of uniformity "issue" is another thing making Tiger's unique. We simply haven't quite the same access to Ford Mustang production photos, for example.
Charming? Maybe....
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It'd be helpful to establish guidelines for judging each of an agreed upon set of classes for use by the national clubs.
Anyone who has entered the same car in concours held by the different clubs knows how squirrelly it can get.
To toss out one example - if the bolts fastening the tray holding the bonnet latch to the chassis are painted that's a deduction for one club but if unpainted that's a deduction by another...
A "concours summit" between the clubs to determine national standards and specific classes would be helpful....just my .02 worth
Anyone who has entered the same car in concours held by the different clubs knows how squirrelly it can get.
To toss out one example - if the bolts fastening the tray holding the bonnet latch to the chassis are painted that's a deduction for one club but if unpainted that's a deduction by another...
A "concours summit" between the clubs to determine national standards and specific classes would be helpful....just my .02 worth
Define The Classes
How the classes are determined seems to depend on what the contest is – concours or autocross. The concours is judged on appearance. The autocross is determined by performance (as far as the car is concerned). The problems come when the same criteria is used for both concours and autocross.
In my opinion, Stock (for both concours and autocross) should mean a car as it came from the factory or equipped with factory approved, dealer supplied options (LAT). The LAT options were sold (and maybe installed) by the Sunbeam dealers here in the US. I don’t know if they were sold in Canada, but believe they were not sold by the dealers in other countries.
Any deviation from stock that gives a car a distinct competitive advantage in the autocross should place the car in the Modified class. These modifications could be things like modified suspension, changes to the front brakes, rear disk brakes, quick racks, fuel injection, stroker motors, modified rear ends, etc. There are two problems, though. First, exactly what deviations from stock qualify as a “distinct competitive advantage”? Also, there seems to be a big reluctance to police entrants to events.
So what changes would cause a car to be placed in the Personalized class? In this scenario, a Personalized car would be one that has been changed from stock but with no changes that give the car a distinct competitive advantage in the autocross. Such changes to a car would include different interior or seats, non-stock top, non-stock color, non-stock 13” wheels no wider that the LATs, an intake manifold or 4 Bbl different from the LAT setup, etc.
It would be up to the owner to decide which class to enter his or her car. When a Stock or Personalized car goes through tech inspection for the autocross, it should be checked for modifications that give it a distinct competitive advantage in the autocross. If any are found, it should be moved into the Modified class. And the tech inspection should take place the day of the autocross without allowing cars to leave the site before the race.
Under such a methodology, it would be good to have a list of potential changes and whether or not they constitute a distinct competitive advantage. Some such examples include different diameter steering wheels, exhaust pipes bigger than the optional LAP pipes, CAT headers (which are different from the optional LAT headers), non-stock power brake boosters, etc. Many of these items would (or should) result in point deductions at the concours, but should they be allowed in the Stock/Personalized classes or require the car to be in the Modified class in such a scenario?
I agree with the call for more transparency, which includes defining the classes before the event and minimizing someone having to make judgment calls the day of the event.
How the classes are determined seems to depend on what the contest is – concours or autocross. The concours is judged on appearance. The autocross is determined by performance (as far as the car is concerned). The problems come when the same criteria is used for both concours and autocross.
In my opinion, Stock (for both concours and autocross) should mean a car as it came from the factory or equipped with factory approved, dealer supplied options (LAT). The LAT options were sold (and maybe installed) by the Sunbeam dealers here in the US. I don’t know if they were sold in Canada, but believe they were not sold by the dealers in other countries.
Any deviation from stock that gives a car a distinct competitive advantage in the autocross should place the car in the Modified class. These modifications could be things like modified suspension, changes to the front brakes, rear disk brakes, quick racks, fuel injection, stroker motors, modified rear ends, etc. There are two problems, though. First, exactly what deviations from stock qualify as a “distinct competitive advantage”? Also, there seems to be a big reluctance to police entrants to events.
So what changes would cause a car to be placed in the Personalized class? In this scenario, a Personalized car would be one that has been changed from stock but with no changes that give the car a distinct competitive advantage in the autocross. Such changes to a car would include different interior or seats, non-stock top, non-stock color, non-stock 13” wheels no wider that the LATs, an intake manifold or 4 Bbl different from the LAT setup, etc.
It would be up to the owner to decide which class to enter his or her car. When a Stock or Personalized car goes through tech inspection for the autocross, it should be checked for modifications that give it a distinct competitive advantage in the autocross. If any are found, it should be moved into the Modified class. And the tech inspection should take place the day of the autocross without allowing cars to leave the site before the race.
Under such a methodology, it would be good to have a list of potential changes and whether or not they constitute a distinct competitive advantage. Some such examples include different diameter steering wheels, exhaust pipes bigger than the optional LAP pipes, CAT headers (which are different from the optional LAT headers), non-stock power brake boosters, etc. Many of these items would (or should) result in point deductions at the concours, but should they be allowed in the Stock/Personalized classes or require the car to be in the Modified class in such a scenario?
I agree with the call for more transparency, which includes defining the classes before the event and minimizing someone having to make judgment calls the day of the event.
Warren
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T.E.A.E. and reading list of interest
[FONT="]http://teae.org/concours-rules-and-guidelines/
http://sunbeamtiger.org/index.php/17-articles/71-latest-news-2
Be sure to scroll down to bottom of second link for downloadable 26 pages.
Attached is some used at last United in Tahoe and the FYI only points discussion.
I'm not proposing that any points system or method is better then another or that one should be used.
Important to me was many guys looking for cars, or restoring their cars are concerned on how to improve or restore them for their intended use. As values rise and fall on these cars it becomes more difficult to drill a hole replace a part personalize or modify one. I would argue that some modifications are not worth the penalty. It doesn't matter if you are talking yacht racing or tiger autocross some mods are hard to make pay in classification or handicap, IMHO An example of note to me is a quick rack "MG" rack and early modified steering arm car is up against a Hokanson, Dale A. or other modern front end. Not worth the penalty, unless you have the Tiger driving skills of Dan W. Its also a double whammy on the MG quick rack car as it is probably regarded as less valuable then a stock front end car to boot[FONT="] , [/FONT]I'd take a better set of tires any day.
[/FONT]
[FONT="]http://teae.org/concours-rules-and-guidelines/
http://sunbeamtiger.org/index.php/17-articles/71-latest-news-2
Be sure to scroll down to bottom of second link for downloadable 26 pages.
Attached is some used at last United in Tahoe and the FYI only points discussion.
I'm not proposing that any points system or method is better then another or that one should be used.
Important to me was many guys looking for cars, or restoring their cars are concerned on how to improve or restore them for their intended use. As values rise and fall on these cars it becomes more difficult to drill a hole replace a part personalize or modify one. I would argue that some modifications are not worth the penalty. It doesn't matter if you are talking yacht racing or tiger autocross some mods are hard to make pay in classification or handicap, IMHO An example of note to me is a quick rack "MG" rack and early modified steering arm car is up against a Hokanson, Dale A. or other modern front end. Not worth the penalty, unless you have the Tiger driving skills of Dan W.
Its also a double whammy on the MG quick rack car as it is probably regarded as less valuable then a stock front end car to boot[FONT="] , [/FONT]I'd take a better set of tires any day. [/FONT]
Autocross classing could be much more straightforward, I think...I'm no expert on how the various clubs do it, these days, so I may be guessing at some of this...
For autocrossing, the biggest item really is tires. I don't believe any of the clubs really make the distinction between high performance street (typically 200 Tread Wear rating) and DOT R compounds...which is a huge difference, along the lines of 1 second on a 60 second course. I think you could run Hoosier A7's on your LAT70's in "Stock" if you want? Once on real slicks, I believe all clubs send you to Modified, which is right, of course. Section width is also a big variable that can easily be managed in classing.
The second item is suspension modification. Any alteration to geometry (which would include things like shorter springs) should take a car out of Stock, imho. Major revisions, like replacement crossmembers, straight to Modified.
The final item is horsepower, which (after the first two) becomes less significant. The only time I've autocrossed my Tiger since putting it back together (lowered stock suspension/KONI shocks/bigger front bar, maxed out alignment, 195 section width Toyos) was at SUNI and I was able to beat Dale and Tom McD in much, much more powerful cars simply because I had the car set up well and drove okay.
I won't even take a swing at Concours judging. Seems it is a bit of everything, including "popular vote", if I'm not mistaken. I do agree that having all the clubs set standards for true Concours restoration criteria is a great idea, as we're seeing more Tigers built towards that 100% correct, OEM, stock standard these days and the marque might benefit from some kind of "Bloomington Gold" type of benchmark.
For autocrossing, the biggest item really is tires. I don't believe any of the clubs really make the distinction between high performance street (typically 200 Tread Wear rating) and DOT R compounds...which is a huge difference, along the lines of 1 second on a 60 second course. I think you could run Hoosier A7's on your LAT70's in "Stock" if you want? Once on real slicks, I believe all clubs send you to Modified, which is right, of course. Section width is also a big variable that can easily be managed in classing.
The second item is suspension modification. Any alteration to geometry (which would include things like shorter springs) should take a car out of Stock, imho. Major revisions, like replacement crossmembers, straight to Modified.
The final item is horsepower, which (after the first two) becomes less significant. The only time I've autocrossed my Tiger since putting it back together (lowered stock suspension/KONI shocks/bigger front bar, maxed out alignment, 195 section width Toyos) was at SUNI and I was able to beat Dale and Tom McD in much, much more powerful cars simply because I had the car set up well and drove okay.
I won't even take a swing at Concours judging. Seems it is a bit of everything, including "popular vote", if I'm not mistaken. I do agree that having all the clubs set standards for true Concours restoration criteria is a great idea, as we're seeing more Tigers built towards that 100% correct, OEM, stock standard these days and the marque might benefit from some kind of "Bloomington Gold" type of benchmark.