260 Pop-Up Pistons

at the beach

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In the past some have asked about where to buy 260 pistons with a pop-up.

At yesterday's CAT meeting, Randy Gillis from AutoTec / RaceTec stopped by. Many of you will remember Randy as JE Piston's Ford expert. I spoke with him briefly.

He says they can make pop-ups for 260s. The price for a street engine will be around $450 per set. He guesses the weight will be around 450 gms. Like I said, this was a quick chat and my recollection of the numbers is off the top of my head. Pistons for a race engine will be a couple hundred higher.

(I was in the middle of TACing 5 Tigers, a swap meet & a CAT meeting. When I stepped out of the meeting to inspect a car I got nominated for an office... I couldn't defend myself...)

For accurate numbers you can contact him at randy@racetecpistons.com

bt
 
Why would you want to Hipo a 260 (if that is even possible)? Why put stress on the rare original engine?

Pull it, make it pretty and put it on a stand in your garage. Drop a $.10 a dozen 289, 302, 331, 347 or 363 in and don't worry about engine longevity or throwing a piston out the side of it.

I had a guy call me asking to buy my 260. He was not happy when I said no. It is a very sweet running engine.
 
. Drop a $.10 a dozen 289, 302, 331, 347 or 363 in and don't worry about engine longevity or throwing a piston out the side of it. /QUOTE]


Duke...I don't know about that $ .10/dozen deal. To build up a strong 302
from new forged parts using a seasoned block you are on the north side of
$13k NOT counting a new bell housing , clutch and tremec TKO

But I'm with you as I don't see the logic in hoping up a stock 260 ....

Moondoggie
 
Well..OK, 289's are a .10 a dozen.

BTW, I built my 454 HP 347 with many new parts and many parts (short block (with new forged parts), heads, rockers) off of Craigslist for less than $6K.
 
Well..OK, 289's are a .10 a dozen.

BTW I built my 454 HP 347 with many new parts and many parts (short block, heads, rockers) off of Craigslist for less than $6K.

Yeah there are some good deals out there if you are patient and look around
in the used market. Every Ford motor I have ever had has broken on me one
way or another so I built a super strong lower end this time. By the way,when
you get ready to get that tremec TKO you will be able to run a bigger Chevy clutch which will help pull in the big horse power :)

Moondoggie
 
By the way,when
you get ready to get that tremec TKO you will be able to run a bigger Chevy clutch which will help pull in the big horse power

Chebby.......CHEBBY parts! My Tiger would have to be on anti-rejection drugs forever.
 
Why would you want to Hipo a 260 (if that is even possible)? Why put stress on the rare original engine?
.... It is a very sweet running engine.

You asked so I guess you want an answer. Actually you already gave part of the answer - I think the 260 is a very sweet running engine.

Back in the late sixties, drag racers like Dempsey Wilson "buzzed" them up to 10K routinely.

As you well know, I've had a lot of practice with powerful 289 race motors that put out as much or more than your 347 street motor while being limited to cast iron Ford production heads, flat tappet cams and dual plain intakes. I know power but I'm thinking about something a bit different for an experimental street motor.

I just got back from the UK and I'm still suffering from the sticker shock from $14 per gallon gas. For some Tigers with hot rodded or poorly tuned engines that's about a dollar per mile! In Britain there's a lot of interest in 5-speeds. They are thinking a lot about efficiency over there.

A decade ago, Dr. Mayfield taught the list that a Tiger only needs 40 HP to cruise on the highway at 70 MPH. Your stroker probably exceeds that at idle. Any increase in RPM above that which is needed to produce this 40 HP is basically wasted. If you cruise at 3000 with a toploader or even 2000 with a 5 speed you're still throwing away a lot of gas. My thinking is that with all things being equal, a 260, being a smaller displacement, would waste less gas per extra RPM so it would more efficient at cruise. Compared to a 260, a 347 is a third larger. To me that translates in 1/3 more power, 1/3 more heat and 1/3 more gas.

I'm currently wondering about two projects for this winter: 1) I can get the race motor over 500 HP? and can build a 260 that, when combined with a 5-Speed, will get 30MPG, produce 300HP and cost less than $2000? I don't know the answers but hope to start this week by changing cams on the race motor. The 260 will have to wait until the race engine mods are completed. But I can think about it now.

As far as the stress goes, the weakest link in 260s are the rod bolts followed by the rods themselves. Most of the stress on these bolts is due to high RPMs, not the loads on the power stroke, since the rod is then in compression. The easiest way to lessen the load on the rod bolts and the rods is to reduce the weight of the piston. Back in the day, 260 pop-up pistons weighed 575 grams. Today they can be made a lot lighter. Spinning an old piston at 6K produces a similar load to revving a modern piston at over 7500. Now there's no way I'd expect to do that but I was just trying to illustrate how "hot rodding" an engine can actually reduce the stress.

On the other hand, the stress on the block is increased when the HP goes up. Balancing a V-8 is a compromise and certain harmonics are produced. In racing we've seen a lot of SBF blocks crack or even split in two with larger HP. I've never seen this in an engine producing "only" 300 HP. Using my "1/3" comparison, a 300 HP 260 when stoked to 347 would extrapolate to only 400HP. This is mild "hot rodding" compared to your 450HP stroker.

What percentage of time am I using WOT? Maybe 1%? I'm just thinking about trying to build an engine that is more suited to my likes for the other 99% of the time.

But you're absolutely right about the cheap cost of Chinese stroker kits and heads that have flooded the market. They are impossible to beat in a $ to HP comparison. Didn't Joe Stalin say that there's a certain quality to quantity? He could have been talking about stroker motors with their raw cubic inches advantage.

Right now I'll go back to "wondering",

Buck
 
Great remarks Buck. I agree to much of it but believe I can get close to 25 mpg hwy with my 347. That will be with a TKO with a .68 OD 5th. The other trick is my Holley Ultra HP 650 with and extreme level of tune-ability. As you know, I run WB O2 sensor with LED gauge that I can monitor the A/F ratios in real time.


But you're absolutely right about the cheap cost of Chinese stroker kits and heads that have flooded the market.

I would never recommend anyone use one of those Chinese stroker kits. My 347 has a Probe Street Fighter kit with Probe rods and pistons and a SCAT crank. I paid $2000 for the short block but the seller had $4500 into it and it was all new except for the 91 5.0 HO block.

I too spend very little time at full throttle as it is very brutal. But, its there when needed ;)
 
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Buck,

Nice to see the HiPo 300/30 260 motor project go public. I like the idea of having an original 260 still in the car that can put out decent performance and also provide some good fuel efficiency.. the good fuel efficiency is generally a sign of a well setup motor as well.

Duke.. on the why would you question to the 260.. IIRC when you got your tiger you hopped up the 260, larger chevy valves, cam manifolds etc.. motor as you said was a sweet runner. Any tiger with 270+ Hp will feel quick.. and your 260 motor probably put out a really nice torque curve. Driving round the streets it was probably as enjoyable as your stroker.. sure it wont do your youtube line-locker NHRA stunts... but how often do you want to do that?

Also i'm figuring that you live in a rather light traffic area.. i know driving around town the alpine is generally more fun than the tiger due to the fact you can use the gears and push the car within the given traffic conditions.. the tiger out on clear roads and up hills etc is awesome.. but that's generally how it pulls away from lower rpm. Bucks project is really interesting.

A few years ago i got a couple of sets of NOS Jahns 12:1 pop-up pistons for an alpine motor, a stateside friend was investigating using them to make a high cop engine to run on ethanol to make a high HP "greener" alpine.. but so far it has stayed a bunch of numbers and parts.:eek:
 
Duke.. on the why would you question to the 260.. IIRC when you got your tiger you hopped up the 260, larger chevy valves, cam manifolds etc.. motor as you said was a sweet runner. Any tiger with 270+ Hp will feel quick.. and your 260 motor probably put out a really nice torque curve. Driving round the streets it was probably as enjoyable as your stroker.. sure it wont do your youtube line-locker NHRA stunts... but how often do you want to do that?

Here is the dyno info from the 260 -

260dyno.jpg


Cam - unknown.
Pistons - .030 over
Valves - larger intake and exhaust, Chevy.
Intake - Weiand 7515
Carb - Autolite

It developed 185 HP. Ran great for 185 HP. To increase the HP more would have taken internal parts changes that would not yield the HP I wanted. Like I said earlier, did not want to stress the engine and risk damage.

The 347 - With 270 more HP, the car is nothing like it was with the 260. Can spin the tires at will in first and second, it is also docile as a 260 with light throttle inputs. I really never need more than 1/2 throttle and don't get into the secondaries much at all.
 
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Duke,

Just to confirm i wasn't saying your 260 had 270+ i was saying that realistically any tiger with 270+ will be fast enough around most circumstances on the street.

185 true HP with your 260 would have been decent on road performance.. but a 260 could put out a reliable and easy 250hp with the later gt40 iron heads or worked 289 heads, screw in rocker studs and the appropriate cam/rod and piston combo.

Don't get me wrong.. i love higher HP.. but with it comes all sorts of other issues (which can also be fun) both in terms of stress it puts on the can in terms of things liek the spring hangers, suspension etc in a tiger. Also at the moment your car probably hits 100mph faster than it stops from it with the stock brakes.

I just think you could build a strong reliable 260 that would have more than enough poke for most real world circumstances s.. especially given the tigers dynamic limitations. :cool:

one last thing.. i would love to try an alloy block/head windsor .. not stroked or even worked that hard.. just 300ish Hp.. i bet wit the lack of weight over the front wheels it would be a much more fun drive.. the turn in, braking and general feel would be so much better... closer to the alpine.
 
I just think you could build a strong reliable 260 that would have more than enough poke for most real world circumstances s.. especially given the tigers dynamic limitations.

Thats my point.....why? You could easily do that with a 289 or 302 for a fraction of the cost. A salvage 302 ($500) with a cam change and some roller rockers ($450) will give you that all day long.

Why dump that money into the original 45+ year old engine.

Buyer - Does your Tiger have the original engine?
Seller - Yes but not installed, it has a 302 in it now.
Buyer - Why is the 260 not in the car?
Seller - I hopped it up and blew a piston out the side, I still have it though.
Buyer - Oh, I see.........

Or

Buyer - Does your Tiger have the original engine?
Seller - Yes but not installed, it has a 302 in it now.
Buyer - Why is the 260 not in the car?
Seller - I wanted more HP and did not want to risk damaging the original engine. The 260 is in great shape on an engine stand and has been restored to the factory appearance.
Buyer - Oh, that is a great!
 
Duke,

i don't think that a well prepared 260 is going to throw the rod unless you are either pushing for too much HP.. or driving it in a manner that will cause that to happen. I guess you could spend the same amount you did on your stroker on a 260 and get a reliable smooth 270hp.. your argument would be.. why bother when you could have 400+ or throw in a 302 with 300hp for half that? ... well i guess its that you have the correct motor in the car, some people like to have the right motor in them.. like having the original 1592 in a an alpine and not throwing in a 1725 and they probably dont think 400hp ina tiger is needed.

I have had people ask me why i need 340, upgraded brakes etc.. if i wanted that i could have just gone and bought a nissan that would cost 1/2 as much, be twice as fast, handle twice as well and be more reliable and comfortable (the same comments have been made to me when i have suggested i am thinking of going to the 5 speed)

Selling the car is not an issue for me.. but it's good if people do keep the parts for future custodians.

there are many people that would appreciate the effort of tuning the original 260 and like the idea of having it in the car not on the bench/stand.. they want a bit more Hp but don't need to have more than it can handle. Also the 260's are not that nice a coffee table ;)
 
Michael..

Here in the states we have a saying " There is no replacement for displacment" I'm with Duke on this subject why waste the time and money
trying to make a 260 something that it is not and Sir Rootes was a very conservative English gentleman that was quite happy with a 150 hp 260 motor in a Tiger and he had no visions nor budget for racing a Tiger. Most
folks would have a hard time even picking out a 260 from a batch of 289 & 302blocks. The six bolt 289/302 block is perfect for creating anywhere from 300hp
to 550 hp and anything in between at reasonable cost. I think it's great that there are a few of us Tiger guys that are willing to unlease the potential in these cars and go crush the spirits of those stuck up Cobra replica owners.
vroom vroom

Moondoggie
 
Last Word

This post has ranged off topic.

And settled into a competition for posting the last word regarding big motors vs small motors.

Everyone knows that there are different strokes for different folks. Neither the strokes nor the folks are better except to themselves and a few kin.

Enough!
 
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